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  #25  
Old August 21st, 2018, 10:24 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Man if I went this year I think I would have ran Granite Guardians. They're one of my all time favorites. Hmm

Maybe...if i'm feeling ballsy:
Raelin
Warden 816
GGs x3
Marcu

Probably would swap a squad for Syvarris (as opposed to Krav; wouldn't really want to face Krav+Raelin in the reverse rounds) if I want to win, but GGx3+Warden is so fun. GGx3+Nilfheim/Zelrig would be fun too.

I like Sujoah a lot too, she unfortunately never sees much play. I'd consider running her too I think.

Sujoah
Q9
Spiders x3

I don't mind facing Q9 alone (without Raelin and/or rats) that much. I've gone up against a lot of opponents who don't really abuse him fully.

....maybe I'd sub a squad of spiders for rats x1....

Sujoah
Zelrig
Hydra

That's a mean army. I think I'd go with that for a Sujoah army

Can't wait to see all the other army builds outside of top 16 get posted. Maybe someone ran GGs

Edit: Anubians are another that would be dope. I guess I really don't know what kind of army I would have went with lol
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  #26  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 02:17 AM
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GG Easy

The other army I was considering Cleon?

Raelin
Heirloom
Nakitas (although I was leaning towards stingers x2)
Granites x2

I ended up going with Templar instead but I thought long and hard.

~Dysole, always bringing something goofy
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  #27  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 09:02 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I'd like AG's plus Krug, but that's probably too strong?
Maybe, but I don't think so. There was a huge range in army power this year. I think the new alternating format has both increased the variance in armies and slightly ratcheted up the average.
1. Matthias (Dwarves x4, Darrak, Marcu, Hatamato Toro) 5-0
2. Hendal (Nilfheim, Greenscales x2, Fen Hydra, Marcu, Isamu, Marro Nagrubs x1) 5-0
3. dok (Tor-Kul-Na, Nagrubs x4, Raelin, Otonashi, Sam Brown) 4-1
4. Evan (Marcus, 4th x2, Romans x2, Q10) 4-1
5. vegietarian18 (Tagawa Samurai Archers x2, Knights x1, Alastair, Syvarris, Raelin) 4-1
6. Mr Chompy (Gorillanators x4, Nakitas, Otonashi) 4-1
7. OrcElfArmyOne (Warriors of Ashra x2, Phantom Knights x2, Concan, Arkmer, Kyntela, Jorhdawn) 4-1
8. ISB3 (Cutters x3, Agent Carr, Dund, Alastair) 3-1-1
9. Major Q23 (Axegrinders x2, Darrak, Phantom Knights x1, Tarn Viking Warriors, Tandros Kreel) 3-2
10. Wookie (Stingers x5, Drake v2, Marcu) 3-2
11. Chris Perkins (Mezzos x2, Raelin, Knights x1, Thorgrim, Zetacron, Marro Warriors, Marcu) 3-2
12. Dysole (4th Mass x2, Templar x2, Raelin, Eldgrim) 3-2
13. Chill (Jorhdawn, Ulginesh, Raelin, Chardris, Arkmer, Kyntela) 3-2
14. Bradley (Zelrig, Greenscales x2, Nakitas, Sam Brown) 3-2
15. William099 (Warforged x4, Siege, Marro Warriors) 3-2
16. Rˇchean (Aubriens x4, Sonlen, Arkmer) 3-2

Of these, I think only a few would have made it to day 2 back in 2010. There's something slightly janky about nearly all of them, and that "150 point rule" seems to largely be in effect.

It seems like practice and knowledge of the maps are how you take these things to day 2. I'm guessing there are still some strong armies out there that just didn't make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #28  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:14 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Forget 2010; most of them wouldn't have made it in 2011. Note how I basically played a nerfed version of my 2011 army (turning Krav into Sam Brown and more grubs). And yet, in 2011 I probably had one of the weakest couple armies that made it. This year I was... slightly above average for the top 16?
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  #29  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:48 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

I blocked that year from my memory after Megasilver rolled my trons with his Venocs... Must have had 4-5 Frenzies on one OM and wiped out all of my Glads. That was the first reverse the whip year, right? Seems like going down to 16 spaces had the biggest effect on what people started bringing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #30  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:54 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I blocked that year from my memory after Megasilver rolled my trons with his Venocs... Must have had 4-5 Frenzies on one OM and wiped out all of my Glads. That was the first reverse the whip year, right? Seems like going down to 16 spaces had the biggest effect on what people started bringing.
Not really. People just started trying to sneak in Day 2 with worse stuff each year, the 16 figure limit didn't have a huge impact on the power level going down. Knights, Heavies, Romans, 4th, 10th, etc. could have still been run at 16 hexes.

Even at 24 hexes, Nathan and William still would have created the first Splash army and I still would have created the first Toolbox army. The 150/9 hexes rule is derived from those early 2015 armies, but those were not conceived with that in mind, if that makes sense.
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  #31  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 12:18 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Main Event Day 2 qualifiers
  • Matthias 5-0(Spidersx4, Estivara, Wyvern x2)
  • ISB3(Infected Sloth's brother) 5-0(Phantom Knightsx5, Heirloom)
  • Vegieterian18 4-1(10thx3, Nakitas, Raelin)
  • Unseenshadowz 4-1(Dwarvesx3,Mogrimm,Krav)
  • Deroche 4-1
  • ManTrainChooChoo 4-1 (Dividersx4,Tul Bak Ra, Krav)
  • Nicktheant 4-1(Stingersx4,Nilf,Isamu)
  • Dok 4-1(Black Wyrmx3, Red Wyrmx3, Marcu, Raelin, Fen Hydra, Ratsx1)
  • Pickle 4-1(Braxas,Stingersx3,Marro Warriors)
  • Arrow Grut 3-2(Greenscalesx3,Moltenclaw,Raelin)
  • Vegie's Dad 3-2(ArrowGrutsx3,Swogsx4,Krug,Raelin,Marcu)
2012:

Championship Day 1
1. Deroche 5-0 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin, Otonashi)***
2. tom 5-0 (6x 4th Mass) ***
3. Pickle4192 5-0 (6x 4th Mass)***
4. Hendal 4-1 (6x Stingers, Raelin, Isamu)***
5. pitboss648 4-1 (4x Heavy Gruts, Grimnak, Nerak)***
6. cornpuff 4-1 (2x Axegrinders, Mogrimm, Raelin, Airborne Elite)*
6. Mattstertruckrally 4-1 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin)***
8. EternalThanos86 4-1 (5x Deathchasers, Nerak, Kaemon Awa)**
9. nicktheant 4-1 (Braxas, 3x Phantom Knights, Marcu, Otonashi, Isamu)*
9. NecroBlade 4-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)*
11. jacob_jp 4-1 (3x Phantom Knights, Isamu, Raelin, Major Q10)*
12. orcelfarmyone 4-1 (3x Greenscales, Nilfheim, Raelin)*
13. infectedsloth 3-1-1 (Fen Hydra, 4x Phantom Knights, Marro Warriors)**
14. George, orcelfarmyone's dad 3-1-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)*
15. sixthflagbearer 3-2 (5x Dividers, Major Q9, Marcu)**
16. Rollitontop 3-2 (4x 4th Mass, Sgt. Drake SotM)**

I looked these up out of curiosity. One star armies in 2012 were already under 16 figures, two stars meant that there were 17 so you could easily sit 1 figure, and 3 meant it was 18 or more. Only 6/16 were ***, which is the same as *. 6 out of the top 7 used many hexes, and I don't think any of them won it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #32  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 12:29 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Main Event Day 2 qualifiers
  • Matthias 5-0(Spidersx4, Estivara, Wyvern x2)
  • ISB3(Infected Sloth's brother) 5-0(Phantom Knightsx5, Heirloom)
  • Vegieterian18 4-1(10thx3, Nakitas, Raelin)
  • Unseenshadowz 4-1(Dwarvesx3,Mogrimm,Krav)
  • Deroche 4-1
  • ManTrainChooChoo 4-1 (Dividersx4,Tul Bak Ra, Krav)
  • Nicktheant 4-1(Stingersx4,Nilf,Isamu)
  • Dok 4-1(Black Wyrmx3, Red Wyrmx3, Marcu, Raelin, Fen Hydra, Ratsx1)
  • Pickle 4-1(Braxas,Stingersx3,Marro Warriors)
  • Arrow Grut 3-2(Greenscalesx3,Moltenclaw,Raelin)
  • Vegie's Dad 3-2(ArrowGrutsx3,Swogsx4,Krug,Raelin,Marcu)
2012:

Championship Day 1
1. Deroche 5-0 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin, Otonashi)***
2. tom 5-0 (6x 4th Mass) ***
3. Pickle4192 5-0 (6x 4th Mass)***
4. Hendal 4-1 (6x Stingers, Raelin, Isamu)***
5. pitboss648 4-1 (4x Heavy Gruts, Grimnak, Nerak)***
6. cornpuff 4-1 (2x Axegrinders, Mogrimm, Raelin, Airborne Elite)*
6. Mattstertruckrally 4-1 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin)***
8. EternalThanos86 4-1 (5x Deathchasers, Nerak, Kaemon Awa)**
9. nicktheant 4-1 (Braxas, 3x Phantom Knights, Marcu, Otonashi, Isamu)*
9. NecroBlade 4-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)*
11. jacob_jp 4-1 (3x Phantom Knights, Isamu, Raelin, Major Q10)*
12. orcelfarmyone 4-1 (3x Greenscales, Nilfheim, Raelin)*
13. infectedsloth 3-1-1 (Fen Hydra, 4x Phantom Knights, Marro Warriors)**
14. George, orcelfarmyone's dad 3-1-1 (4x Death Chasers, Ogre Pulverizer, Raelin, Nerak)*
15. sixthflagbearer 3-2 (5x Dividers, Major Q9, Marcu)**
16. Rollitontop 3-2 (4x 4th Mass, Sgt. Drake SotM)**

I looked these up out of curiosity. One star armies in 2012 were already under 16 figures, two stars meant that there were 17 so you could easily sit 1 figure, and 3 meant it was 18 or more. Only 6/16 were ***, which is the same as *. 6 out of the top 7 used many hexes, and I don't think any of them won it all.
Nice analysis. Glad/Blast are hurt by lower figure limits but that's about it, the other *** armies can be rebuilt slightly without losing much power.
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  #33  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 11:21 PM
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Re: GG Easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
The other army I was considering Cleon?

Raelin
Heirloom
Nakitas (although I was leaning towards stingers x2)
Granites x2

I ended up going with Templar instead but I thought long and hard.

~Dysole, always bringing something goofy
That's a cool one, I like Nakitas. Stingers x2 might overshadow activations needed for the GGs to advance, but Stingers are so solid they're pretty much never a bad addition, so that probably works too.

Something about the GGs I just love. Wish they were like 80/85pt though. 100pt is pricey. Same with the Quasatch.
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  #34  
Old May 7th, 2019, 02:08 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Well, this to me is still the way that I find thinking about Main Event armies most productive. So here's my new archetypes for the 2018 armies:

Toolbox

This isn't my concept and I haven't actually played with or against any of these armies in a Main Event match so I don't have any major opinions on them. Where Splash armies normally use Raelin to keep their already well-statted figures alive, Toolbox armies forego the defense boost and instead just add another tool to the army. They are certainly easier to punish mistakes with than Splash, where an opponent can mess up and still be fine since it's hard to punish someone who is sitting in Raelin's aura even if they are sitting in it badly. They are probably worse at going against cogent armies than Splash is though; it's kind of anti-Splash in a way.

Major Q23 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2)
Dwarves x2
Darrak
Tandros
Tarn Vikings
Phantoms x1
Arkmer

OrcElfArmyOne (made Day 2)
Warriors of Ashra x2
Phantom Knights x2
Concan
Arkmer
Kyntela
Jorhdawn

Really good?

I don't even know what to say about these and there's a few of them every year really. A few people manage to overachieve with them and get a bit farther than they would be expected to go, but I find it hard to see a build like this ever winning the Main Event. It seems silly not to acknowledge them though.

Hendal 2018 (Made Day 2, 5-0 Day 1)
Nilfheim
Greenscales x2
Hydra
Marcu
Isamu
Nagrubs x1

Wookie 2018 (Made Day 2, 3-2)
Stingers x5
Drake (SotM)
Marcu

nicktheant 2018 (3-2, missed Day 2)
Braxas
Stingers x4

Flawed AND Whole

It's hard keep coming up with names when the distinctions aren't really figures. In these builds, instead of patching over the weakness of bad figures and playing them in their best builds like Mediocre but Whole armies do, you just play the okay figures and fill your whole army with them and try to play around their weaknesses during the course of the games and hope your opponent is worse at that than you are. I think it's a pretty sound strategy, especially as the meta weakens and there's less of a need to have an army prepared to beat everything.

dok 2015 (made Day 2, Top 4)
TKN
Nagrubs x3
Raelin
MBS
Marcu

dok 2018 (made Day 2, Top 4)
TKN
Nagrubs x4
Raelin
Sam Brown
Otonashi

Rˇchean 2018
Aubrien Archers x4
Sonlen
Arkmer

Of the other notable Main Event armies, I'd class them within my previous names as follows:

Short But Good

Matthias 2018 (won Main Event)
Axegrinders x4
Darrak
Marcu
Hatamoto

ISB3 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-1-1)
Cutters x3
DŁnd
Agent Carr
Alistair

You could maybe argue a bit more on the second but I think Dund is so bad and Agent Carr is so overpriced that it's basically like playing short in the way ISB3 did in his 2016 Main Event win with Cutters an heroes. Not as short as Hatamato, but the Dwarves are better than Cutters so.

Bread and Butter

Evantage 2018 (made Main Event finals)
4th x2
Romans x2
MDG
Q10

Dysole 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2)
4th x2
Templar Cavalry x2
Raelin
Eldgrim

Very successful run for Evantage using a double squad build without Raelin. His may even be considered something else than a double squad build since the exclusion of Raelin allowed for Q10 to be squeezed in as a SA. Maybe that's even a Toolbox army.

Splash

Before I was saying that I didn't think my army was Splash but I think the Splash builds are actually defined more specifically than low commons: it's Raelin + solid stats from a variety of squads and heroes that require order marker management. You want something that can clog the board and something that can do damage and then a utility piece. Both Chris Perkins and I probably overshot the meta with our builds: Chris just has a ton of solid figures and my build clicked together really nicely especially with Syvarris behind a Tagawa screen. Dragon Ruler's is less of an overshoot since none of its pieces can do anything crazy, but Kaemon Awa is really good, especially backed by Raelin.

vegietarian18 2018 (made Day 2)
Tagawa Samurai Archers x2
Knights x1
Alistair
Syvarris
Raelin

Chris Perkins 2018 (made Day 2 at 3-2)
Mezzos x2
Knights x1
Thorgrim
Raelin
Zetacron
Marro Warriors
Marcu

DragonRuler 2018 (3-2, missed Day 2)
Sacred Band x2
MDG
Raelin
Kaemon Awa
RedW x3


Mediocre but Whole

Gorillas are far worse than mediocre so this is quite an impressive build to see make the second day.

Mr Chompy 2018 (made Day 2)
Gorillinators x4
Nakitas
Otonashi

I'll hopefully get this added to the OP eventually. The most notable thing I see from this is:

-Splash and Toolbox armies didn't perform well on Day 2
-The more cogent army archetypes did

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  #35  
Old May 7th, 2019, 02:56 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Where Splash and Toolbox armies excel are the RtW rounds. For example, I went 4-1 day one and 1-1 day 2. I went 3-0 against my army and 2-2 with it. I had one game where I effectively won on OM2 of Round 1 because my opponent didn't understand how to play my army. My other RtW rounds were much closer, but my opponents were once again unable to effectively piece together all the synergies and I was able to capitalize on mistakes.

My losses were to Nick the Ant and Dok. Nick had Braxas and 4x Stingers (he went 3-2, fwiw). I killed Braxas and 7 Stingers; there were just too many for my army to handle. I lost to Dok in Top 8 because I made a couple boneheaded misplays that cost the game.

The charm of these armies is in how punishing they are to misplays. If you play them great, you can take down most anything (barring really strong stuff like Nick's army). If you screw up, it can be the game. It also creates pseudo-byes, as your opponent can screw up early and be in a huge hole. This is amplified when you don't have Raelin, as you mentioned. I'll probably bring a Toolbox army again this year, although I'm not sure what it'll contain. I have time; I figured out the Jorhdawn module a week or two before GenCon last year.

Edit: it's also important to note the success these armies have had. Nathan took second just two years ago with a Splash army. A single year of these armies not making top 4 is not a large enough sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from.
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  #36  
Old May 7th, 2019, 04:35 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

I wasn't intending this to be a grand takedown of Splash and Toolbox armies, just some observations from looking through last year's armies as I start to think about this year's.

I went 2-1 with my Splash army and 2-0 against it on Day 1 so I agree with you that the RtW rounds definitely help especially Day 1 where you are going against likely not as experienced player as Day 2. But I lost the first RtW round Day 2 to ISB3 who is a great player and probably had one of the weakest armies in the Day 2 field. I guess my thought is that Splash armies may struggle on Day 2 since they are usually going to be piloted by players who are able to figure them out since the figures and especially the roles those figures are playing in a Splash army are familiar.

Whereas counterintuitively the simpler armies based on weaker figures often have more subtle and important decisions that even good players might not be familiar with if they don't intimately know the figures that are being used. My most successful Gencon run was with a pure (Krugless) Arrow Gruts build and both of my RtW wins (against good players, Hendal and Matthias) came because they made mistakes on the subtle but important decisions that Arrow Gruts entail.

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