The Golden Compass and Religion NOW LOCKED

[HSisforcoolkids]

I'm usually not one to jump into others' disagreements on here, but I didn't read any Scripture in jbbnbsmith's posts, so I'm not sure how he is being a Bible thumper. He has a different opinion than you, Imax, and so you called him a name. At least that's the way it seems to me. Can you at least just try to see that he has had a different experience than you with mission trips? That is a courtesy he extended to you.

I have been on a mission trip where it was just BS fun time for the kids for 75% of the trip, and I was less than happy with that trip. I've also been on trips where the travelers did 6-8 hours of difficult labor (mixing and pooring concrete, building homes, repairing homes) and caretaking (bathing and playing with mentally challenged children) each day. Mission trips/humanitarian trips, like most things in this world, have a great potential to be good, but we often turn them into something that is far less than good.

[jbbnbsmith]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

Never mind. I should know better than to argue with Bible-thumpers.Happily, you're not all alike.

Ah yes, "Bible thumpers." Yet more drone-speak.
I'm done here. You can go ahead and have the last word, or give me the finger, or whatever else you choose to do.

[DoesntCompute]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

Nope, sorry to disagree with you here. That honor goes to "Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer." Which was on tonight.

I disagree with both of you. The Grinch Who Stole Christmas is the best.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

Just don't be Jewish, or Atheist, or Muslim, or Buddhist, etc.. This is a private club of loving, caring, standing heart to heart and hand in hand type people.

I hear what you're saying and in today's society I don't think you're off base.. but I think you're reading into the story a modern interpretation that was not there from the start. Dr.Suess was not some Christian NeoCon. He was more like a liberal hippy who would have agreed with the idea of an American secular Christmas tradition (however religious in it's roots). Our country is much more polarized these days.

I don't think the who's were meant to symbolise religious Christians. Nothing I remember from the story has any parallel to religious themes or church or religious traditions. It's all let's get together and have general family merriment.. I mean that could be pagan, Catholic, Christian, Jewish or secular.

It just so happens to make sense in that particular interpretation though nowadays. Pro-Life folks once took his book "Horton hears a who" as a pro-life. Suess sued the pro-life group.

Peace

[countblah]

Ah, yes. The Grinch. Quite so. The difference between the religious undertones (perhaps overtones) of the grinch, and the anti-religious undertones (or overtones) of the Golden Compass is as follows: The Grinch is a Christmas movie. It is a movie talking about a religious holiday, and the observance thereof. It is speaking of the true meaning of Christmas, and how it has been caught up in things, instead of in people and in Jesus. Now, Christmas, for whatever else has been done involving it, is a Christian holiday. It has been ever since we swiped Saturnalia.

Now, nobody is saying that Non-Christians may not celebrate Christmas, but nobody is saying that Non-Christians have to be involved. If we're talking about the religious observance of the season, the message cannot be one of tolerance, and inclusiveness. It just can't. Christmas is not an inclusive holiday, not really. If you aren't excited for the birth of Jesus, then I don't know how to change up the message for you. For a reference of this, check out the "Clone High" snowflake day episode, with Snowflake Jake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhQf8xIUO2M

Atheists, though, do not have any holidays that they can make films about. There are not Atheist carols, no Atheist holy days, not there. The Grinch is about Christmas, and should not be ashamed of that - if it says "Christmas" right in the title, then it should be expected that there will be exclusive Christmassy content therein. The same with Adam Sandler's "Eight Crazy Nights" about Hanukkah.

A Christmas message is uncomfortable to some. An Atheist message is uncomfortable to others. They both have the right to exist or not to exist, unashamed and present. And I have the duty to watch or not watch them as I see fit.

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by countblah

Atheists, though, do not have any holidays that they can make films about. There are not Atheist carols, no Atheist holy days, not there.

Soltice. It's a naturural event, just like harvest. It means the sun is only getting closer, from here on out, kinda like a cosmic humpday. An athiest friend of mine uses it as an excuse to join in the "happy holidays" season.

[countblah]

Great. I'm glad there's an event that they can go to. And when the "solstice" movie gets made, with a title like "Arnold the Solstice bear" or whatevs, I can check it out, or not.

By the way, there was no sarcasm intended in this post. It didn't come across that way, but, ur, nevermind.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

And by the way there is no such thing as a secular Christmas. Christmas is a Christain holiday. You can strip all of the religious meaning out of it if you like but you are still celebrating a Christain religious day of observance. Have you ever heard of a secular Easter? A secular Passover?

Now I'm waiting for the first person to call me a Grinch. Come to think of it my avaitar is green and looks sorta Grinch like.....

Christmas is just a name tacked on to a holiday that already existed for hundreds of years. The Christmas tree, holly, missletoe, reindeer and Santa all were in place long before the Christians decided to re-name it. I don't have to tell you this though. Actually in our consumer society, the majority of what we call Christmas is purely secular. Finally, living in America it is impossible to avoid Christmas. My children live in this country and Christmas is more of a cultural tradition for us than any kind of religious holiday... And it's fun too. And just as we are not whitches and do not believe in ghosts we also have a great time on Halloween. And we do easter as well, considering that there are no easter eggs or bunnies in the bible, we know that it is just another pre-existing holiday that was absorbed during the adoption of Christianity. Heck I've celebrated Cinco de Mayo and I'm not Mexican so sue me, it's fun!

[countblah]

You are welcome to celebrate Cinco de Mayo. Of course. But the added proviso is that you do not get all snippy when Mexicans enjoy it and make a big deal about being Mexican. It's the same way with the fourth of July. If they are in the country, British people are welcome to celebrate the day, but I think we'd all get a little perturbed if they acted all hurt because they perceived that the holiday was against them. It kinda is (or at least against the nation of England from a long time ago). Whatever, it's still an exclusionary holiday at its core, which you are welcome to celebrate, but Americans aren't going to alter the history of the Fourth of July just so British people can join in without feeling bad about their own heritage.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by countblah

You are welcome to celebrate Cinco de Mayo. Of course. But the added proviso is that you do not get all snippy when Mexicans enjoy it and make a big deal about being Mexican. It's the same way with the fourth of July. If they are in the country, British people are welcome to celebrate the day, but I think we'd all get a little perturbed if they acted all hurt because they perceived that the holiday was against them. It kinda is (or at least against the nation of England from a long time ago). Whatever, it's still an exclusionary holiday at its core, which you are welcome to celebrate, but Americans aren't going to alter the history of the Fourth of July just so British people can join in without feeling bad about their own heritage.

But there's really nothing exclusionary about Christmas. It's peace on earth good will to all baby!

[DrRansom]

Originally Posted by countblah

Great. I'm glad there's an event that they can go to. And when the "solstice" movie gets made, with a title like "Arnold the Solstice bear" or whatevs, I can check it out, or not.

By the way, there was no sarcasm intended in this post. It didn't come across that way, but, ur, nevermind.

Well.. I think this kid's series was intended to do that actually. Only it's Iorik the armoured polar bear.

[countblah]

Yes and no. I think this idea is based loosely on Luke 2, but I don't think it supports the argument that the "great joy" that the angel talks about comes with the caveat of "for whatever reason." I would argue that the great joy that the angel talks about, that will be for all people, is attached to the birth of Jesus.

If, on the other hand, you are arguing that the peace and goodwill for all people is something that you'd like for the season, then that is quite another thing. But it is not part of Christmas itself, it is part of the greater culture surrounding it. What you are talking about, Gbob, is based on an idea of fairness and inclusiveness, and general good cheer. That is snowflake day. It isn't Christmas. The same way that a generic "country day" would not be the same as the fourth of July.