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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #49  
Old October 21st, 2016, 01:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Initial in progress, thinking about changes. Details below the tests

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Songbird

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Songbird, Luke Cage, Atlas, Blue Beetle (800) vs Wrecking Crew (800) vs Wrecking Crew (800)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Meteorite, Atlas, Songbird, Captain America, Ragdoll (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Drax, Wonder Woman (1000)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: She feels good to me at 180 so far. Maybe a hair overcosted, but she opens up a lot of army-building possibilities, so it's going to take a bit more testing to get a solid feel for her value. Not done with the initial yet (I'd want to get in one more Crime Fighter build and one more Charlatan build, minimum, even if we made no changes), but I wanted to propose a slight change in direction for Thunderbolt Redemption. I think I'd like to drop Sonic Flying after all and tackle the power more like this:

Quote:
THUNDERBOLT REDEMPTION
At the start of the game you may choose Songbird and up to one other figure you control that is a Criminal or has a Repentant personality. The chosen figures have a class of Crime Fighter for the entire game, instead of what is listed on their Army cards.

THUNDERBOLT LOYALTY
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of any other Unique Hero you control within 5 clear sight spaces of Songbird and before taking a turn with that Hero, if that Hero is a Crime Fighter or if that Hero and Songbird are both Charlatans, you may take an immediate turn with Songbird. After using this special power, you may not take a turn with any other figures you control other than that Hero.
The main changes are that
a) The bonding timing would works the same both ways, and she'd be a bonding figure in Crime Fighter builds rather than an OM hub. It's a minor design goal of mine to try to avoid "All your OMs on one card" type builds for the Thunderbolts, so I like that change.
b) She'd have the option of bonding with Crime Fighters or Charlatans when she's a Charlatan, but just Crime Fighters when she's a Crime Fighter. I feel like that's thematic (definitely going to be some Crime Fighter/Charlatan integration down the line, when I get to Jolt and Hawkeye), and it gives a little more upside to playing her as a Charlatan, which is otherwise not quite as good as Crime Fighter, since the latter gives her the recruitment option.
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  #50  
Old October 21st, 2016, 02:05 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: She feels good to me at 180 so far. Maybe a hair overcosted, but she opens up a lot of army-building possibilities, so it's going to take a bit more testing to get a solid feel for her value. Not done with the initial yet (I'd want to get in one more Crime Fighter build and one more Charlatan build, minimum, even if we made no changes), but I wanted to propose a slight change in direction for Thunderbolt Redemption. I think I'd like to drop Sonic Flying after all and tackle the power more like this:

Quote:
THUNDERBOLT REDEMPTION
At the start of the game you may choose Songbird and up to one other figure you control that is a Criminal or has a Repentant personality. The chosen figures have a class of Crime Fighter for the entire game, instead of what is listed on their Army cards.

THUNDERBOLT LOYALTY
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of any other Unique Hero you control within 5 clear sight spaces of Songbird and before taking a turn with that Hero, if that Hero is a Crime Fighter or if that Hero and Songbird are both Charlatans, you may take an immediate turn with Songbird. After using this special power, you may not take a turn with any other figures you control other than that Hero.
The main changes are that
a) The bonding timing would works the same both ways, and she'd be a bonding figure in Crime Fighter builds rather than an OM hub. It's a minor design goal of mine to try to avoid "All your OMs on one card" type builds for the Thunderbolts, so I like that change.
b) She'd have the option of bonding with Crime Fighters or Charlatans when she's a Charlatan, but just Crime Fighters when she's a Crime Fighter. I feel like that's thematic (definitely going to be some Crime Fighter/Charlatan integration down the line, when I get to Jolt and Hawkeye), and it gives a little more upside to playing her as a Charlatan, which is otherwise not quite as good as Crime Fighter, since the latter gives her the recruitment option.
Would you ever keep her as a Charlatan in a Crime Fighter build?

If not why not just simplify it so that she gets the bond if they have the same

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #51  
Old October 21st, 2016, 02:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Would you ever keep her as a Charlatan in a Crime Fighter build?

If not why not just simplify it so that she gets the bond if they have the same
In a predominantly Crime Fighter build, probably not. But I like the idea of Songbird letting you mix Crime Fighters into the Charlatans somewhat. There are a few particularly thematic options (Jolt and Hawkeye) that I've yet to tackle there, but the Thunderbolts also teamed up with a variety of legitimate heroes while they were pretending to be good guys.
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  #52  
Old October 21st, 2016, 07:41 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Those seem like fair changes. I can get on board with that.

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  #53  
Old October 21st, 2016, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Those changes seem fine to me.

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  #54  
Old October 22nd, 2016, 09:23 AM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Cool. Hoping to get this initial wrapped up tonight/tomorrow, so I'll plan on running with that if no-one else weighs in against it.
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  #55  
Old October 22nd, 2016, 09:30 AM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Just a couple of points about the change:
  • There's no longer really any point of 'redeeming' Atlas unless you also have Luke Cage any more - is this a theme break or not?
  • I'll miss Sonic Flying, but it's not a big deal.
  • This way of working it will make her much easier to test - if I can include Crime Fighters even in her non-redeemed variation, then that will be much easier to test her than just having her work with the two Charlatans that exist, plus making her synergy work the same way when redeemed or non-redeemed, it will make her feel a little less like two separate figures (though I'm unsure if that's a good or a bad thing for her character...)


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  #56  
Old October 22nd, 2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
There's no longer really any point of 'redeeming' Atlas unless you also have Luke Cage any more - is this a theme break or not?
I would say not. She's worked with Atlas on both sides of the law. It isn't crazy to me that, if you're looking at just strictly the two of them without bringing any other units into the picture, they get along about the same.

Either way, I'm definitely doing more Crime Fighter stuff in the future, so it'll probably make more of a difference for Atlas later. The power still very much has a point for Radioactive Man and Criminals.

Quote:
I'll miss Sonic Flying, but it's not a big deal.
Yeah, it was a neat little theme touch, but honestly, it's a rarely-used power on any unit, in my experience. Songbird, wanting to stay close to your other units and having a bonding power, probably has even less occasion to use it than most.

Quote:
This way of working it will make her much easier to test - if I can include Crime Fighters even in her non-redeemed variation, then that will be much easier to test her than just having her work with the two Charlatans that exist, plus making her synergy work the same way when redeemed or non-redeemed, it will make her feel a little less like two separate figures (though I'm unsure if that's a good or a bad thing for her character...)
Yeah, I thought the change would ease some of these concerns. As far as the theme of it all goes, there are upsides and downsides to the bonding working the same way. But mechanically, I feel like it's all upsides, and the Redemption power is enough to portray her character arc, I think.
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  #57  
Old October 30th, 2016, 12:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Songbird

Before changes:

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Songbird, Luke Cage, Atlas, Blue Beetle (800) vs Wrecking Crew (800)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Meteorite, Atlas, Songbird, Captain America, Ragdoll (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Drax, Wonder Woman (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

After changes:

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Songbird, Captain America (C3G), Bucky, Atlas, Iron Man Mk IV (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Atlas, Songbird, Human Torch (Jim Hammond), Oracle (710) vs Black Canary, Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Robin (Dick Grayson), Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Speedy (Roy Harper), Atom (Ray Palmer) (710)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I'm finding her just slightly underwhelming. Thinking of nudging her attack up to 5. Probably doing any further testing around 700-800 points, and recommending others do the same. I think that's more where she has room to shine at the moment.

I'm finding myself waffling a little bit on the necessity of letting her bond with Crime Fighters as a Charlatan, but otherwise liking the changes here.

Last edited by Ronin; December 2nd, 2016 at 08:45 PM.
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  #58  
Old November 7th, 2016, 08:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

I've had a few hold-ups that have kept me from wrapping up here, but after thinking it over, I suspect I'm just dawdling at this point. She's feeling a bit weak (1-3 so far, with no stand-out personal showings), so I think I'd like to give her a small buff and put her out to the public at 180 (I don't want her to slip much lower than that in cost).

My first instinct was to bump her attack, but I'm leaning toward giving Sonic Construct Defense some range. (And possibly pushing her own defense to 6) My experience with her is that she doesn't tend to get a ton out of her bonding turns, and trying to position her for a decent attack means it's hard to maintain the benefit of Sonic Construct Defense. I'd like to alleviate that a bit and make it possible for her to still protect allies without being crap on attack.
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  #59  
Old November 8th, 2016, 09:51 AM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

I can get behind that.

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  #60  
Old November 10th, 2016, 06:40 PM
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Re: The Book of Songbird (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
NAME = SONGBIRD
SECRET IDENTITY = MELISSA GOLD

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CHARLATAN
PERSONALITY = PASSIONATE

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 4

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 180


THUNDERBOLT REDEMPTION
At the start of the game you may choose Songbird and up to one other figure you control that is a Criminal or has a Repentant personality. The chosen figures have a class of Crime Fighter for the entire game, instead of what is listed on their Army cards.

THUNDERBOLT LOYALTY
After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of any other Unique Hero you control within 5 clear sight spaces of Songbird and before taking a turn with that Hero, if that Hero is a Crime Fighter or if that Hero and Songbird are both Charlatans, you may take an immediate turn with Songbird. After using this special power, you may not take a turn with any other figures you control other than that Hero.

SONIC CONSTRUCT DEFENSE
When defending against a normal attack, Songbird and all friendly figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Songbird add 1 to their Defense numbers, or 2 to their Defense numbers if the attacking figure is a Symbiote.
I'm proposing we move Songbird to public testing with these changes.
EDIT 11-11-2016: lowered base Defense number back to 5, changed Sonic Construct Defense to let it affect Songbird.

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Quick recap; she's under-performing a bit in her initial showing (1-3 and generally not that great), so I wanted to tweak her defense boost to make it a bit more relevant. It's hard to get it to come into play as-is. So that has an aura effect now. I also nudged her Defense up a point for some extra staying power.

May or may not be enough to make her hit 180 (which is my sweet spot for value here in that it feels appropriate for either early-career or late-career Songbird), but I'm comfortable fiddling with the numbers from this point based on testing.

Last edited by Ronin; November 11th, 2016 at 11:37 PM.
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