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  #121  
Old January 16th, 2014, 12:05 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

"Rolling defense dice" is an action, just like moving and attacking. Specific powers that say "this figure can't roll defense dice" pre-empt this action. Otherwise the action happens regardless of what a figure's defense number is. From DnD rulebook:

"To carry out the attack, follow these steps:

1. Announce which figure is the Attacker and which figure is the Defender.
2. Check the Attack number on your Attacker's Army Card, adding any extra
dice for height advantage, special powers, or Glyphs. Then roll that number
of attack dice. After you roll, the Defender rolls the number of defense dice
on his Defender's Army Card
, adding any extra dice for height advantage,
shadow spaces, special powers, or Glyphs."

So the defender rolls the number of defense dice on his Defender's Army card (even if that number is 0). The action happens even if the defense number is 0.

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Last edited by The B.I.V.; January 16th, 2014 at 12:14 PM. Reason: consulted DnD rulebook
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  #122  
Old January 16th, 2014, 12:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

I suppose we could shake our empty fists and release them to the table, thus rolling zero dice.

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  #123  
Old January 16th, 2014, 03:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

I believe the precedence is in the counter strike power. If the attacker rolls no skulls the counter strike figure still gets to roll for counter strike (and I am certain this was ruled on by the officials). I see this as a similar situation as the Venocs can have their defense increased by the normal means.
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  #124  
Old January 16th, 2014, 11:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
"Rolling defense dice" is an action, just like moving and attacking. Specific powers that say "this figure can't roll defense dice" pre-empt this action. Otherwise the action happens regardless of what a figure's defense number is. From DnD rulebook:

"To carry out the attack, follow these steps:

1. Announce which figure is the Attacker and which figure is the Defender.
2. Check the Attack number on your Attacker's Army Card, adding any extra
dice for height advantage, special powers, or Glyphs. Then roll that number
of attack dice. After you roll, the Defender rolls the number of defense dice
on his Defender's Army Card, adding any extra dice for height advantage,
shadow spaces, special powers, or Glyphs."

So the defender rolls the number of defense dice on his Defender's Army card (even if that number is 0). The action happens even if the defense number is 0.
You present this very well, but from this logic, would you say that The Marro Hive can therefore Move? That is not right, or at least not consistent.

"Rolling defense diceMoving" is an action, just like moving and attacking. Specific powers that say "this figure can't roll defense dicemove" pre-empt this action. Otherwise the action happens regardless of what a figure's defensemove number is.

No power says The Hive can't move, but with a zero Movement number, I say he can't. What say you?
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  #125  
Old January 16th, 2014, 11:30 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
No power says The Hive can't move, but with a zero Movement number, I say he can't. What say you?
It says specifically is the dang SotM rulebook that the Marro Hive cannot be moved by any powers whatsoever.

The Marro Hive is given SPECIAL RULES that I cannot move at all.

Burny, I understand the argument that you're trying to make, but this is all done and settled already.
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  #126  
Old January 16th, 2014, 11:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
I just wanted to point out there is not a community consensus on that ruling.
Consensus and unanimity are not the same thing.
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  #127  
Old January 16th, 2014, 11:34 PM
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Wink Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
"Rolling defense dice" is an action, just like moving and attacking. Specific powers that say "this figure can't roll defense dice" pre-empt this action. Otherwise the action happens regardless of what a figure's defense number is. From DnD rulebook:

"To carry out the attack, follow these steps:

1. Announce which figure is the Attacker and which figure is the Defender.
2. Check the Attack number on your Attacker's Army Card, adding any extra
dice for height advantage, special powers, or Glyphs. Then roll that number
of attack dice. After you roll, the Defender rolls the number of defense dice
on his Defender's Army Card, adding any extra dice for height advantage,
shadow spaces, special powers, or Glyphs."

So the defender rolls the number of defense dice on his Defender's Army card (even if that number is 0). The action happens even if the defense number is 0.
You present this very well, but from this logic, would you say that The Marro Hive can therefore Move? That is not right, or at least not consistent.

"Rolling defense diceMoving" is an action, just like moving and attacking. Specific powers that say "this figure can't roll defense dicemove" pre-empt this action. Otherwise the action happens regardless of what a figure's defensemove number is.

No power says The Hive can't move, but with a zero Movement number, I say he can't. What say you?
It says he has a move phase. Even if he cannot move, he still has a move phase. A turn in Heroscape is a chain of logic. Even if you don't do anything during the phase, it still counts as happening. Hence the phrase found on many cards: "After moving and before attacking". You don't have to move for the power to activate. It just has to happen after the move phase.
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  #128  
Old January 16th, 2014, 11:45 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

I guess I always thought of this issue in the same way as Moving - a Movement of 0 is different than NOT Moving, but it still counts as a Move for the purposes of Special Abilities.
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  #129  
Old January 17th, 2014, 07:02 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by orgsbane View Post
It says he has a move phase. Even if he cannot move, he still has a move phase. A turn in Heroscape is a chain of logic. Even if you don't do anything during the phase, it still counts as happening. Hence the phrase found on many cards: "After moving and before attacking". You don't have to move for the power to activate. It just has to happen after the move phase.
I don't agree with the term "phases" at all (it was not in the first rulebooks and I think the card-game community has brought that word unofficially over here), but obviously turns proceed in a certain fashion. Moving then Attacking then Defending. But that is not the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garada View Post
I guess I always thought of this issue in the same way as Moving - a Movement of 0 is different than NOT Moving, but it still counts as a Move for the purposes of Special Abilities.
Does moving zero count towards special abilities? I don't agree that the 10th Regiment of Foot etc. should lose their Wait Then Fire (or get their Bayonet Attack 1) bonus if they move zero, do you? What about engagement strikes on figures that "moved zero," do they activate? That is the same (in my opinion, flawed) logic.

I honestly am going on what I see the card says, and think the rest of you guys aren't. Reread the wording to Scatter. But regardless, if you think you have fulfilled the power requirement (rolled defense dice against an opponent's normal attack), then activate the power.
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  #130  
Old January 17th, 2014, 09:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomeunleashed View Post
BurnyFlame can play it however he wants, and as he said, it almost never comes up, but R˙chean clearly stated that the designers said that 0 defense dice is not the same as no defense dice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
Jared, DA Burny understands the logic being presented he just doesn't agree with it. Rehashing it for him or presenting it from another point of view isn't going to change his mind. But thanks for trying.

-------

DA BFlame, I'm not a designer. I had these same questions when we tested these guys and the game designers explained the difference to me.

Obviously, there is a difference between rolling 2 less and not getting to roll any at all regardless of height, Raelin, glyph, shadow tile, etc... But you already know that.

It is what it is. I see what you are saying, but it won't change this item. Powers have been written with the mindset that rolling less defense is not the same as not being able to roll defense. They are different and they will continue to be different.
I'm quoting this response for the most obvious of reasons: R˙chean was a member of the rules team, and to the best of my knowledge he's the only one that has continued to weigh in on such rules discussion since the cancellation. If he offered up the above wisdom, I don't really see any room for argument.

Oh, and for the record, as the struck-out text above implies in such a tongue-in-cheek manner, the feels exactly like one of DA's arguments. The mere reference made me laugh out loud.

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  #131  
Old January 17th, 2014, 10:48 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
Does moving zero count towards special abilities? I don't agree that the 10th Regiment of Foot etc. should lose their Wait Then Fire (or get their Bayonet Attack 1) bonus if they move zero, do you? What about engagement strikes on figures that "moved zero," do they activate? That is the same (in my opinion, flawed) logic.
No, the 10th Regiment should only get their Wait Then Fire bonus if they specifically DO NOT Move - if they choose to Move 0, they technically still Moved and would not be eligible for their bonus... if you catch my drift. It's a subtle distinction, and it doesn't necessarily specifically apply to the 10th Regiment, but there is definitely a difference between NOT Moving and choosing to make a Move of 0 as far as the rules of Heroscape are concerned, just as there's a distinction between choosing Walking over Flying on Roads to get the +3 Move Bonus, or the distinction between rolling 0 dice and NOT BEING ALLOWED to roll dice in order to activate Scatter.

Let's just say that hypothetically another Army Card offered a bonus to the 10th Reg AFTER MOVING. I would say that they would have to declare that they are Moving to get said bonus, and even if they declared that they were "Moving Zero", they would still have moved and would therefore NOT be eligible to receive the 'Wait Then Fire' bonus that specifies "Instead of Moving...". Is it "logical", or does it make "common sense"? Not necessarily, but this is the point at which real world logic gives way to the necessity of game mechanics.

And for the record, I definitely don't think they should benefit from their Bayonet Attack special ability if they Move 0 because the power specifically states "if he moved at least 1 space this turn."

I think Confred has the best idea: "We could shake our empty fists and release them to the table, thus rolling zero dice."


Last edited by Garada; January 18th, 2014 at 01:21 AM.
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  #132  
Old January 18th, 2014, 04:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Deathreavers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garada View Post
Let's just say that hypothetically another Army Card offered a bonus to the 10th Reg AFTER MOVING. I would say that they would have to declare that they are Moving to get said bonus, and even if they declared that they were "Moving Zero", they would still have moved and would therefore NOT be eligible to receive the 'Wait Then Fire' bonus that specifies "Instead of Moving...".
It's already been established that "after moving and before attacking" means "after optionally moving and before optionally attacking". (It's too bad it wasn't originally written that way. This would have avoided a whole lot of confusion.) The moving and attacking actions of a turn are both optional, according to the rulebook. (What's not optional is revealing an order marker.) If someone makes a custom that triggers a power "after moving and before attacking", I highly recommend wording it "after optionally moving and before optionally attacking" if that is what is meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garada View Post
I definitely don't think they [10th Regiment] should benefit from their Bayonet Attack special ability if they Move 0 because the power specifically states "if he moved at least 1 space this turn."
So you're saying, there is a difference between "After a Deathreaver you control rolls defense dice..." and "After a Deathreaver you control rolls at least 1 defense die..." because it's possible to roll zero (or even a negative number of) defense dice?

The fact that it was written as "moved at least one space" (instead of just "moved") on the 10th Reg card shows how silly things got with this "moving zero spaces" concept. It should not have been necessary to write it that way because it is not possible to move zero spaces. It's also not possible to roll zero (or less) defense dice.

However...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulebook
For example, with a Move number of 5, a figure can each move 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 spaces.

Last edited by GaryLASQ; January 18th, 2014 at 04:47 PM.
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