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  #73  
Old May 28th, 2018, 07:39 AM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post

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General Kuah
Einar

Kyrie
Unique Hero
Warrior
Disciplined
MEDIUM 5

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 3
Points 120

SWIFT VENGEANCE 13
After a Soldier you control that follows Einar is destroyed, you may move General Kuah up to 5 spaces as long as he ends his move adjacent to an opponent’s figure. After moving, choose one opponent's figure adjacent to General Kuah and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for the General Kuah’s movement, ignore elevations. The General Kuah may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When General Kuah starts to fly, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
To be honest this is close to where I’m at. I really like the subtle synergy with the EI but also his ability to assist other Soldiers as well. As a General I think that makes sense. His stealth flying is in line with other Einar Kyrie...and having 2 powers is a prrtty simple yet effective design. I like the idea of combat challenge as it makes sense with the figures intimidating pose...but like Spartacus, combat challenge is kind of Tabdros’ ability or “calling card” as Superfrog put it. That and I’m really not jazzed at all about them As an uncommon hero for this miniature. I really just can’t see multiples of these guys, the miniature just seems too unique to have five of them on the battlefield. He really seems like a unique general out there for me.

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  #74  
Old May 28th, 2018, 12:12 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post

To be honest this is close to where I’m at. I really like the subtle synergy with the EI but also his ability to assist other Soldiers as well. As a General I think that makes sense. His stealth flying is in line with other Einar Kyrie...and having 2 powers is a prrtty simple yet effective design. I like the idea of combat challenge as it makes sense with the figures intimidating pose...but like Spartacus, combat challenge is kind of Tabdros’ ability or “calling card” as Superfrog put it. That and I’m really not jazzed at all about them As an uncommon hero for this miniature. I really just can’t see multiples of these guys, the miniature just seems too unique to have five of them on the battlefield. He really seems like a unique general out there for me.
I like the design more without bonding and with Stealth Flying, but personally I can almost never see myself using it with the Imperium at this point (which, to be fair, is likely one of the intents) when there are so many better options like the Romans or the 10th Regiment of Foot. That's not a fault of the design of course, it's just a fact of the matter that there are better Einar Soldiers out there. This design definitely feels more like a standalone hero unrelated to the Imperium.

I have to disagree with Combat Challenge being a "calling card" on the level of Gladiator Inspiration. It's a pretty generic ability that I think was only introduced to create a "tank" for dungeon crawls (but was found to be ineffective in that combination of powers on a Unique Hero) and was consequently not seen again. I also don't think it makes thematic sense to limit it solely to Tandros Kreel, since it merely conveys an imposing presence that can't be ignored and has little specificity to him. Imagine if Kaemon Awa (another Unique 120 point Hero) was released before any other Samurai. Counterstrike would essentially be his defining trait, but as we saw, the power could still be applied to other effects and was general enough for it to be done so. I think that Combat Challenge is in the same place: it just hasn't had a reason to be reused yet.

I also have to respectfully disagree about the miniature not fitting an Uncommon Hero, but much of that is personal taste. To me, the figure looks almost exactly like an elite version of the Einar Imperium: the differently colored pants, mask concealing part of the face, and new use of heavier weaponry all make it seem like a slight variation, a superior soldier capable of helping the others out through indirect means. The mini doesn't scream general to me (although the pose does seem confident and intimidating), and I think that an Uncommon Hero is a nice way to make him rare while still acknowledging his existence as a soldier. The mask also does wonders for the argument that there are more soldiers like this, since it matches the multiples of the Imperium more than Kiova and seems like something that Einar would definitely do in his army.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you completely change your design to match that Einar Praelia idea I had. I just wanted to illustrate that an Uncommon Hero with gameplay benefitting the Imperium (perhaps coupled with a light power broadly tied to them) will help them more than a Unique Hero, along with avoiding the common complaint that a boosting unit creates a single viable build. I think the Uncommon Hero design space is considerably more free (and overall less used) than Unique Heroes, and this miniature seems like a perfect chance to take advantage of that.
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  #75  
Old May 28th, 2018, 02:01 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

My perception of the comments was that synergy to the EI would not be unwelcome, but just that DIRECT synergy specifically for them would. In light of that, I'm trying a new route, where General Kuah can still be used with them, but in a lighter way. I don't mind that he'll be used in other builds as that makes sense for a Einar General...but for those looking for a strictly thematic build, he can run with the EI, similar to the way Sir Dupuis works with his Templars. My latest thoughts are as below. @Dad_Scaper @Kinseth you had some pretty specific concerns with the design, and I appreciate the insight. I'm alter quite a few things but in light of the comments given I'm heading for a lighter synergy with the EI that will still be fun to add them to a thematic build but still have other uses, while also being a standalone beast stick.

What do you think?



This is by no means the final version, but I think I'm getting closer to what I want from the design based off of the feedback. Stealth Flying fits the Einar Kyrie, Itimidating Presence fits the mini in my opinion and helps his "beast stickness" as well as allows him a little more survivability since he's required to move on the death of a soldier. Swift Vengeance right now is actually my favorite. I think it's a unique design to require a player to move their unit as they may not actually want to, but he's solid enough it could be worth it to run him out where he can be near the front lines handling things as his soldiers fall. I think there may need to be a clause that limits the number of times he can do it such like...."General Kuah may not use [activate?] Swift Vengeance more than twice per turn."
The only reason I would do twice is that I think once just wouldn't be enough to be a threat and twice could really pull off some interesting vengeful moves throughout a game.

Please let me know what you think. @BiggaBullfrog and others, feel free to chime in as well if you like.

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  #76  
Old May 28th, 2018, 02:47 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
My perception of the comments was that synergy to the EI would not be unwelcome, but just that DIRECT synergy specifically for them would. In light of that, I'm trying a new route, where General Kuah can still be used with them, but in a lighter way. I don't mind that he'll be used in other builds as that makes sense for a Einar General...but for those looking for a strictly thematic build, he can run with the EI, similar to the way Sir Dupuis works with his Templars.
I agree with this stance, even if I personally would avoid the Soldier angle on account of it including so many good options already. I think that letting him be used in a multitude of builds is important, but he then needs to be balanced with the rest of the builds in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
My latest thoughts are as below. @Dad_Scaper @Kinseth you had some pretty specific concerns with the design, and I appreciate the insight. I'm alter quite a few things but in light of the comments given I'm heading for a lighter synergy with the EI that will still be fun to add them to a thematic build but still have other uses, while also being a standalone beast stick.

What do you think?



This is by no means the final version, but I think I'm getting closer to what I want from the design based off of the feedback. Stealth Flying fits the Einar Kyrie, Itimidating Presence fits the mini in my opinion and helps his "beast stickness" as well as allows him a little more survivability since he's required to move on the death of a soldier.
This is by far my favorite incarnation of Kuah so far. The design does feel distinct and like an Einar Kyrie, and I really like the use of Intimidating Presence and how it can subtly help the various factions (without being as powerful as an extra defense die for Kiova). It's of course most useful for other units, but it's a good way to improve the survivability of various factions whilst remaining thematic.

I do think that the stat distribution could be improved (creating an Einar Kyrie with more than 3 Defense gives much more value to Kiova, which is an opportunity for more subtle synergies that don't need to be used for Kuah to still be effective), but that's mostly just minor qualms, and his Intimidating Presence needs to be factored in against melee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Swift Vengeance right now is actually my favorite. I think it's a unique design to require a player to move their unit as they may not actually want to, but he's solid enough it could be worth it to run him out where he can be near the front lines handling things as his soldiers fall. I think there may need to be a clause that limits the number of times he can do it such like...."General Kuah may not use [activate?] Swift Vengeance more than twice per turn."
The only reason I would do twice is that I think once just wouldn't be enough to be a threat and twice could really pull off some interesting vengeful moves throughout a game.
This incarnation of Swift Vengeance is definitely the highlight of the design. I'm fond of its simplicity, along with the fact that it is still able to be used as a movement power (the restriction of only being able to damage the attacking figure is nice in how it requires players to get Kuah close ahead of time to maximize effectiveness) to provide more ways to play him.

The power definitely seems to be too strong, though, in my opinion. A once/twice per turn limit is absolutely required, as otherwise Kuah could easily annihilate a whole squad of Knights of Weston in a single turn. If the wound is automatic and guaranteed (which I personally prefer to a D20 roll for the simplicity), then I would say once per turn is completely fair. Twice is pushing it a little, especially when it can be used after an opponent kills a 12.5-point Roman Legionnaire in a shield wall formation.

Also, just as a quick note, I don't believe the current wording of Swift Vengeance requires the player to move at all. It simply says "up to 5 spaces," which includes 0 spaces as an option. If you want Kuah to be forced to move, you might want to add a clause about not being able to end his movement adjacent to the same figures, on the same space, or something else to force players to not fly in circles around the same hero beating him into submission. Even just saying "you must move Kuah between 1 and 5 spaces" would work, if you're fine with a player moving one space away and then right back if they choose.
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  #77  
Old May 28th, 2018, 02:49 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

This iteration seems like it would be pretty fun. I never use the EI but like that they can benefit from the ability but would more likely use them with romans or regiment.

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  #78  
Old May 28th, 2018, 04:00 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Checking in to say that I really liked the idea of Kuah and this version is really good.
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  #79  
Old May 28th, 2018, 05:18 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

You "must" move him 5 spaces? Do explain.
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  #80  
Old May 28th, 2018, 06:49 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Just going to mention that "must move him up to 5 spaces" doesn't actually force you to move him at all. Especially with Stealth flying, you can just move back and forth on any adjacent space, and leave him exactly where he started. You could also run away from the battle, since there's no requirement about where you need to move to.

If you want him to be forced to move, you'd need it to be something like this:
"When a Soldier you control that follows Einar within 5 spaces of General Kuah is destroyed by an attack from an opponents figure within 6 spaces of General Kuah, you must move General Kuah up to 5 spaces. General Kuah must end his move adjacent to that opponent’s figure."

There needs to be a requirement to the move beyond the fact that you must move them. This version here works because with a move of 5, Stealth flying will always allow you to end your move adjacent to the opponents figure. The version I wrote could probably have the wording improved, but you get the idea.

The simplest way to fix this is just to change it from "must", to "may". There's already incentive to move him into engagement for the free wound, so there's not much of a reason to force the player to move him.
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Old May 28th, 2018, 07:29 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

I agree with @Leaf_It . Trying to force players to move will add a lot of unneeded complexity to the power when the player will generally want to move Kuah anyways. I don't think much of the design would be lost in just using the normal "you may move Kuah up to 5 spaces" language.
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Old May 28th, 2018, 07:44 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Neat second draft. However, I just talked with my main consultant (True) about it and we have a few gameplay issues:

We don't really like using Einar Soldier as the broad synergy point. Romans are already really good and have four figures with bonding (Sacred Band as well). Swift Vengeance working with them basically gives them a second bonding figure. I don't think that's good for the game, and will unnecessarily drive up his point cost. It's similar for the 10th and Cathar Spearmen as well - four figure squads that are already good. It isn't that he'll break these armies, but in order to be balanced in them you're just driving up the cost, which makes him even worse with the EI, which you're wanting him to be used with primarily.

Also, definitely a limit on how many times Swift Vengeance can be used in a turn, and that limit should be one. There should also be a D20 roll for it (though you could bump it up to 2 wounds if you want - I would buy that with that big mace). As is, any squad that relies on defense (Minions, Sentinels, Warforged, Shieldsmiths, Mezzodemons, Deathwalkers, etc.) are just going to auto-lose to Kuah alone.

As for the "must move" thing, I get what you're going for with basing it off of the C3G cards, the wording just needs to be tweaked is all. As mentioned, changing it either to "may move," or to something along the lines of "when an opponents figure within 5 (clear sight?) spaces of General Kuah destroys a Soldier you control, you must immediately move Kuah adjacent to that figure if possible (because Cyberclaw) and roll the D20 ... etc" (very loose wording there - needs to be more "official" but just to get the idea across).

Neat card! I think it will be really cool in gameplay.

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  #83  
Old May 28th, 2018, 08:38 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Hmmm...Good points regarding the movement during Swift Vengeance. I appreciate the insight.
@BiggaBullfrog , I think I'm going to disagree with you here. The current iteration of giving a wound to the attacking figure may be too strong as is (as I anticipated), but once per turn is fairly balanced imo. There are plenty of units that bypass defensive abilities, and for a standalone hero, I don't see that as an issue. I don't believe he'll be a single-handed army killer, but rather another threat that makes games interesting and difficult for opponents to account for. Also, while he's got a wide variety of synergy, I don't know that he helps einar soldier armies all that much. He brings a fun ability that can scare opponents, but in those type of high synergistic bonding armies, it'll take some valuable order markers to get him into position in the first place. That, and at 120 points, he may be too valuable to put into a normal, competitive einar soldier build. Imo, he'll be used as a way to "change it up" and add something new rather than become the next best option for these builds.

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  #84  
Old May 28th, 2018, 09:04 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

I disagree that there won't be room for Kuah in Roman or other Soldier builds, especially if he can bypass defense and move somewhat freely with Swift Vengeance and Stealth Flying. If he works with all Einar Soldiers (of which there is a large variety of very good options), you have to price him accordingly, which will unfortunately mean that he'll be of less use to the Imperium as was originally intended.

I think a key point here is that General Kuah can easily bypass defense, whereas it is much more difficult for other units (or at least they're harder to fit into a wide range of armies). Sure, if Swift Vengeance requires him to end adjacent to the enemy to move at all, he'll require Order Markers to get into position, but the attack penalty and possibility of wrecking high-defense targerts doesn't sound too bad.

As a quick aside, I could see General Kuah heavily encouraging turtling within Kiova/Raelin's aura and forcing the enemy to come to him. Once an Imperium finally falls, he would be able to wound the attacker without ever receiving a single Order Marker.
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