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  #49  
Old October 28th, 2010, 02:38 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
You could say the same, perhaps, for the Kozuke, NotNW, and Brutes, too?
I'm not following you. None of those figures can do damage while protected with a rat screen.
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  #50  
Old October 28th, 2010, 02:54 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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I also agree with the rankings about Stingers. From a melee perspective Stingers aren't that great. Their range is terrible against melee and as a three man squad they quickly get overwhelmed by a bonding squads superiority in attacks. Sure you can add Deathreavers to the mix but usually Deathreavers/Any Range is a nightmare for most melee builds.
I agree with this, but stingers are among the nastiest options available to put behind the rat screen. The only options that can deliver more damage are Braxas, Nilfheim, Airborne, and the WTF squads, and those are all rated B+ or better in this scale.

And to look at this from the other side - I don't see why Q9 would be considered an A+ in these rankings if we're not taking into account the rat screen. Q9's offensive output is almost strictly lower than the stingers - he'd be better off with a range 6 triple attack of 3 than his special against melee squads. And his toughness is not that great when knights+gilbert or heavies+Grimnak start dropping attacks of 3 and 4 on him each turn. Granted, Q9 is a beast against melee when fronted by rats and backed by Raelin, but as you say, so is any range.

I've always considered Q9 more of a ranged figure counter than a melee figure counter, because Q9 by himself can take out waves upon waves of 4th or 10th.
The biggest difference here is Stingers eat up start zone hexes therefore limiting the number of rats that they bring with them (usually). Very seldom do you see more than 2 squads of rats with stingers. Most melee bonding armies can handle 2 squads of rats.

Q9 on the other hand can have 3 or 4 or even 5 squads of rats depending on how girly you want to be. That many rats is nigh impossible for a melee army (other than heavies + Grimnak) to contend with.
It is rare to see 3x rats with stingers, for sure. I'm surprised how rare the ratsx3/stingersx3/Raelin/(pick a hero that fits the points) army is.

That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
His ranking is not based off that. I was just responding to what had been posted.

His ranking is based off the fact that a 7 year old has an actual chance of winning a tournament if Q9 is in his army. That's how easy it is to use him. He has very little weaknesses and you can even screw up pretty bad with him and that 7 defense / 4 life can get you out of all sorts of jams. Even without a screen he takes some punches before he falls. Braxas and AE don't. Plus I've found many people still play the AE wrong and go for the grenade waaaay too much. Nilf is tougher to use because a lot of times you have to make tougher decisions (placement and do I disengage or not).

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  #51  
Old October 28th, 2010, 02:59 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
You could say the same, perhaps, for the Kozuke, NotNW, and Brutes, too?
I'm not following you. None of those figures can do damage while protected with a rat screen.
Well the brutes could use the rats to manuver into a more advantegeous position before using Barge into Battle... not the best, but workable.
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  #52  
Old October 28th, 2010, 03:02 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
You could say the same, perhaps, for the Kozuke, NotNW, and Brutes, too?
I'm not following you. None of those figures can do damage while protected with a rat screen.
They will get first strike if their targets are engaged to Deathreavers at the time and, while those they don't kill may attack them, they will initially (and perhaps longer) hit harder than Q9, but perhaps our definitions of "screen" are materially different.
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  #53  
Old October 28th, 2010, 03:02 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
Okay I'll attempt to explain this to you. By using The figure; Realin; and Ratx3 core of the army.

Braxas/Ratx3/REalin = 410
Since Braxas has a high cost; in a 500point tourney it leaves you with 90 points left. Braxas has a range of 4 and able to hit 3 targets. By the time you have the ability to put up a decent screen; an experienced melee player will have his whole army in you're face. The amount of rats and the range of Braxas's special is her downfall with being an A+ unit; she has to be within 4 range which will have one's whole army in your face. That's not enough range for Braxas not to get pulverized quickly. I would guess 1-3 rounds of Braxas staying alive as an average once you're set up and the whole melee army is in your face. That and the 90 point clean up figure won't be enough to take on the other half of his army.

Nilf/Ratsx3/Realin= 385
Nilf may be more dangerous only because of his longer range. But it's almost the same; plus his special isn't all that big against Braxas's special. You are able to Defend against Nilf's while you can't really against Braxas. He may live a longer life in the same battle but he won't kill as many; (saying the dice are average on both sides.) However with this being a 115 point left you do have the other 115 points that could still take out the army which then just ups that unit(s) rank and not nilf's.

AE/Ratsx3/Realin= 310
190 points left to put in a few other units. THOSE UNITS will have to hold of the army until the AE DROP. IF they drop within the first 2-3 rounds then the game may be over; but if they drop after that it's all up on the dice and skill of the players.The drop keeps them from the A+ since it's random and the army still has to rely on the 190 points of the army at the beginning.

Q9/Ratsx3/Realin = 380
Q9 has long range to draw people in; Q9 has a special to take out multiple squads; Q9 still has a solid 120 points to put in for clean up. Q9 has a higher survivability then Braxas and the AE and arguably with Nilf; (6 life with 6-7 defense can contend with 4 life and 9-10 defense). There q9 just beast the Braxas army; and since he starts on the board he Beats out the AE. AND he doesn't have to rely on the 115 points to start picking people off before they hit your rat line with his entire force.

That is why Q9 is an A+ using the ratx2/realin pod rather then the other 3. If you don't see it why now then you're in denial; or I have failed in putting this into a comprehensible view for you.

Last edited by Tiny Timmy; October 28th, 2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: It doesn't matter; rats/realin pods are for girls
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  #54  
Old October 28th, 2010, 04:18 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

I'll let this go after this post; I mostly just wanted to understand where Matthias was coming from with these rankings, and I think I get it now, so we can just agree to disagree if we're still disagreeing (which I think we are).

I want to be clear here - I agree 100% with Q9 being an A+ in Jexik's rankings, and being the only offensive figure ranked A+. But the main reasons for that are:
  1. Q9's special is ridiculously versatile. killercactus has gone over this before, so I won't get into the details. But that versatility is not all that useful against melee bonded armies, who aren't especially vulnerable to special attacks and who all have 3 defense or more. Against bonded melee, it's basically a triple attack of 3 that can't get height advantage, which is good but not anything out of the ordinary.

  2. Q9 owns opposing ranged figures, hard. You name it - if it's ranged, it doesn't want to face Q9. Krav, Kaemon, Airborne, Q10, Marro Warriors, all the dragons, 4th, and 10th all usually lose to Q9. The only exception, really, is stingers. Every other strong counter to Q9 is melee - usually melee with bonding.
My issue is that the justification for ranking the stingers a B- was is that they aren't favored against bonding melee. OK, fine, that's true and makes sense. But the same thing is true for Q9 unless he's cowering behind a big pile of rats. Sure, he can go on a crazy run of defense dice in the hands of a seven year-old, but stingers can go on a crazy run where they hit the juice every time and win games they shouldn't, too.

If I know I'm facing bonding melee, there are several things I'd rather have behind a rat screen over Q9, including Braxas, Nilfheim, and Airborne. I'd rather have more killing power while the screen is in place, even if it means my range is going to drop faster if the screen gets cracked. Nilfheim and Braxas are both more likely to kill all the knights before the rats die than Q9 is.

Yes, Q9 is easy to use, but again, so are a big pile of stingers. (I agree that the AE are tricky to use and get used wrong a lot.) All I'm saying is that if we're looking at it from a purely melee perspective, I don't see why Q9 should be singled out as the lone A+ (non-Raelin, non-rat) figure.

I agree that that the ratsx3/Braxas/Raelin 410 point core is too expensive for a 500 point build, but it can work pretty well at higher point totals. At 470 with Marro Warriors and the Airborne Elite, they won the main event. Also, Nilfheim and the Airborne leave enough points for the other one; together that's extremely nasty to melee armies. Or you could add Krav/Marro/Q10/whatever, depending on the points.

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Q9 has long range to draw people in; Q9 has a special to take out multiple squads
Both of those are functionally the same for basically every other ranged figure if the opponent is all-melee. Braxas's 4 range is more than enough to work from behind the rats. All you lose by comparison to Q9 is a couple potshots taken against the melee army on the way in, which are nice but aren't crucial (and can be handled by some other unique squad, anyway).

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Q9 has a higher survivability then Braxas and the AE and arguably with Nilf; (6 life with 6-7 defense can contend with 4 life and 9-10 defense).
That's definitely true, but he still drops pretty fast and won't generally earn his points once the screen cracks and there's three knights in his face. Those attacks of 4 (with Gilbert) will take him down pretty fast. Where Q9's high defense really shines is when he's taking down 20 minutemen or 16 redcoats, where they get attacks of 3 if they're lucky and mostly attacks of 2.

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AND he doesn't have to rely on the 115 points to start picking people off before they hit your rat line with his entire force.
Just about every army imaginable is going to have at least two offensive threats. It's not that big of a deal to, say, put some early OMs on the Krav and then shift to Braxas when the other army gets close.

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That is why Q9 is an A+ using the ratx2/realin pod rather then the other 3. If you don't see it why now then you're in denial; or I have failed in putting this into a comprehensible view for you.
Again, I completely agree with Q9 being the only non-rat, non-Raelin A+ figure. I just think that's true because of what he can do to range. If we're only considering how he matches up with all-melee, I really don't think he's a cut above Nilfheim, et al.
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  #55  
Old October 28th, 2010, 04:36 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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That said, if Q9's ranking here is based on how nasty he is against non-Orc melee with 12+ rats in front of him, then shouldn't Braxas, Nilfheim, and the Airborne Elite be just as high or higher than Q9? They're all easier to kill once you break the rat screen, but they all kill faster than Q9 while the screen is in place.
You could say the same, perhaps, for the Kozuke, NotNW, and Brutes, too?
I'm not following you. None of those figures can do damage while protected with a rat screen.
They will get first strike if their targets are engaged to Deathreavers at the time and, while those they don't kill may attack them, they will initially (and perhaps longer) hit harder than Q9, but perhaps our definitions of "screen" are materially different.
You're absolutely right that rats will allow Kozuke/Ninjas/HSBs to get first strike against most melee opponents. However, that's basically all it gets you - first strike. After that, it's up to the figures themselves to hold up to opposing attacks. And the Kozuke and NotNW are not all that great in that regard when facing 12 or 16 or 20 bonding squad figures. (The HSBs actually might do quite well - I don't think they need cutters to be effective.)

By contrast, a ranged figure can force an army like the knights or the sacred band to kill almost every deathreaver before they get to attack the offensive threats. It's a totally different dynamic. The rats aren't just buying the ranged figures first strike - they're buying them the first dozen strikes.
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  #56  
Old October 28th, 2010, 05:00 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

I agree with dok's point about Q9. It's not the Major that beats opposing melee armies. It's having to cut through 12+ Reavers and then deal with Raelin enchanced troops that puts them in a bind. I only played against one Q9 last week when playing Knightsx3/Gilbert and was able to easily dispatch the Major while losing 3-4 Knights in the process. Q9 was even at height as well but was sadly friendless. (No Reavers/Raelin)

Looking at the individual units it can be argued a unit like Kaemon Awa would present a much more frustrating threat to a melee based team due to counterstrike, a seven ranged threat of 4 dice and an even more frustrating double attack of 4. Let's not even talk about how much worse this would become when backed by Raelin and ten million Deathreavers.

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  #57  
Old October 28th, 2010, 05:09 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

I think dok where you keep getting confused is that you think these rankings are how good certain units are against melee period. I think wriggz put it best in post 39 -

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I thought It was clear that this was a list that represented the Meta-game rankings if you were skilled/trained to use Melee really well.

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  #58  
Old October 28th, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

Thanks for saying what I was saying in a much quicker/easier-to-read format, Matt.

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I think dok where you keep getting confused is that you think these rankings are how good certain units are against melee period. I think wriggz put it best in post 39 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz
I thought It was clear that this was a list that represented the Meta-game rankings if you were skilled/trained to use Melee really well.
Yep, that was my confusion. I knew it was one of those two things but I had misinterpreted your previous efforts to clarify. Sorry about that.

In that case, I'm fine with Q9 as an A+, and my only issue is that I think stingers should be a bit higher. Sure they're bad against melee, but they're good against Q9 and redcoats, and that's a lot of what you see at tournaments. But I'm done complaining; they're your rankings and there's a good argument for why you put them there. There's a reason stingers did pretty poorly overall at GenCon this year, after all.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:26 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

Braxas Range of 4; yeah sure it can reach over a rat screen; however a single crack on the rat screen can cause the melee to get to braxas before you have a chance to do anything about it. The Same goes for anything directly behind the rat screen.

Rats make any unit behind them Good with an Experienced player. For instance I can take Syvarris, or Zetacron and make them Overpowered behind a rat screen; however it's how the unit acts behind the rat screen. Braxas and nilf have the squad fighting ability but they can't really make anyone uneasy and attack prematurely. Q9 can; the AE can but the AE still need the other points to compensate until they drop.

Also; Like I said; Rats are for girls(including inexperienced players).

Now; lets go back to why I started posting on this thread for.

@ Matthias

Cyprien's a beast and you know it.

The Sacred Band; Romans; and dwarves may not handle other armies "quite as well" against other builds as Knights and Orcs. They still deserve to be an A-.

Sacred Band - only reason why knights and orcs beat them is because of their army disciplined power; limits there already limited bonding options and army companions. That and in tournaments you go to only like 1 person if any have the Sacred Band due to their scarcity...

Romans - They're ancient; and just got rereleased within the last year or so. They're most diverse in their bonding options. There downfall is there shield wall ability.

Dwarves - they can handle things better then knights and Orcs. with their large figure bonus and there bonding flexibility. Only thing Knights and Orcs have against them is the dwarves flexibility with bonding; having to choose 6 move vs bonding.

Wolves of Badru - with or without bonding they are just as good at what they do as the anubians; if it wasn't for Khosumet sucking; and now the WL being a bit too much I would have them instead of the Anubians in my Vampire/Werewolf army. The Badru shouldn't be at the D+ but at C or C+. The difference between them is; Anubians have a higher defense better against range however have that possiblity at suicide; while the badru don't have the possible suicide every start of the turn but the situational suicide.

You've always said the more attacks the better; that's why I think the Drones should be bumped up.

When you speak that you haven't seen any tourney valor from these units; is because THEY ARE NOT POPULAR ENOUGH. Few competitive players will pick the SB or the Drones or the WoB instead of the top tier armies.

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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Re: A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

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@ Matthias

Cyprien's a beast and you know it.

The Sacred Band; Romans; and dwarves may not handle other armies "quite as well" against other builds as Knights and Orcs. They still deserve to be an A-.

Sacred Band - only reason why knights and orcs beat them is because of their army disciplined power; limits there already limited bonding options and army companions. That and in tournaments you go to only like 1 person if any have the Sacred Band due to their scarcity...

Romans - They're ancient; and just got rereleased within the last year or so. They're most diverse in their bonding options. There downfall is there shield wall ability.

Dwarves - they can handle things better then knights and Orcs. with their large figure bonus and there bonding flexibility. Only thing Knights and Orcs have against them is the dwarves flexibility with bonding; having to choose 6 move vs bonding.

Wolves of Badru - with or without bonding they are just as good at what they do as the anubians; if it wasn't for Khosumet sucking; and now the WL being a bit too much I would have them instead of the Anubians in my Vampire/Werewolf army. The Badru shouldn't be at the D+ but at C or C+. The difference between them is; Anubians have a higher defense better against range however have that possiblity at suicide; while the badru don't have the possible suicide every start of the turn but the situational suicide.

You've always said the more attacks the better; that's why I think the Drones should be bumped up.

When you speak that you haven't seen any tourney valor from these units; is because THEY ARE NOT POPULAR ENOUGH. Few competitive players will pick the SB or the Drones or the WoB instead of the top tier armies.

I have to go I'll finish up later...
Every bonding army you compare to the knights and / or heavies and say they would be just as good as them except for (fill in the blank). That's my whole point! A rating of a B means they are good just not great which is essentially what you are saying when you (fill in the blank).

As for Drones, WoB, etc they aren't popular enough because.... THEY SUCK!

@ dok

When I sit down to play a game of heroScape and I see stingers across from me I never worry even if it's Spider Poison using them. If I sit down and see Q9 against me I worry, even if it's against my 5 year old daughter.

I think the stingers rise in popularity was as you mentioned because they can take down Q9, redcoats, and are a decent match-up behind rats for the 4th. But nobody was really playing melee WELL except for a few people when they were at the top of the spectrum. And those few people have been saying stingers are way overrated for years. And I believe people are starting to hear that. I did see Dignan finished 3rd at NHSD in TX, but I wonder if he faced any hard core melee armies.

Dragon Dice - (the 2nd best game there is) Learn to Play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G

Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; October 28th, 2010 at 06:09 PM. Reason: OK the Drones don't suck but you get the point
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