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  #61  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 10:00 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

This seems to fix a lot of the problems that have been addressed. Also feels on theme.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
To be fair, it has never been a hard or fast rule we've officially made that flip cards can't have 2 figures, that's just something we decided along the way. I'm not entirely opposed to some of them having different figures, but it would be something to push for, not the accepted norm.

(There were some concerns as well, when the concept was originating, about having to buy 2 minis in order to be able to play a single design. I imagine something like this, where figures would need to be modded, would not help with that concern.)

As for the rest of the design, I don't think the flip aspect was what was overly complicated. Like sure, it was complicated, but I think that's kind of expected for a mechanic like that. I definitely appreciate the simplification there, but it's not my primary concern. Let's take a look at Unstoppable Brute, as an example.
Quote:
UNSTOPPABLE BRUTE
Once per round, if Edward Hyde would be destroyed by receiving wounds, place or remove Wound Markers until he has 2 Life remaining. Before attacking, choose up to 2 small or medium figures adjacent to Hyde to receive 1 wound. If a Mina Murray in your army has 3 or more Wound Markers on her card, after taking a turn with Hyde, take one additional turn with him, and you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.
That is, in reality, 3 different effects all jammed into a single power, which makes the power feel very cluttered. In theory, each power a figure has should represent a single mechanic. Of course, in practice, we do sometimes end up cramming multiple effects/mechanics in a single power, often because those mechanics are thematically related/similar. But it's good design practice to try to keep each power to representing 1-2 effects.

Has Hyde been shown to be resistant to mind control in any way? Other than that, figures changing size in vehicles can already happen and is kind of just part of the "game, not simulation" ethos. And one panel of a character saying something doesn't seem like justification for a character being unable to hold items. (His range number can already be modified in other ways, such as Mister Sinister.)

Here is an example of how I would chisel down what you currently have. (Ignoring the flip/separate design debate.)
Quote:
NAME = DOCTOR JEKYLL
SECRET IDENTITY = HENRY JEKYLL

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 0
DEFENSE = 2

POINTS = ???


“NO DRIVES”
Start the game with this Army Card flipped to this side. Doctor Jekyll may not make any leaving engagement attacks, or attack any figures.

MAINTAIN CONTROL
If Doctor Jekyll would receive any number of wounds or be destroyed, flip this card.
Quote:
NAME = MISTER HYDE
SECRET IDENTITY = EDWARD HYDE

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = UNIQUE HERO
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE 7

LIFE = 6

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 7
DEFENSE = 6


INFRARED VISION POWER
When Mister Hyde attacks a figure on a Shadow Tile, the defending figure does not receive any additional defense dice for the Shadow Tile.

MINA-CENTRIC POWER
Edward Hyde cannot take a turn unless you revealed a numbered Order Marker on his card, or on the card of a Mina Murray figure you control. If a Mina Murray figure you control has 3 or more Wound Markers on their Army Card, add 2 to Mister Hyde's Attack number.

JEKYLL JEKYLL HYDE JEKYLL HYDE HYDE JEKYLL
At the end of the round, if Mister Hyde is unengaged, you may remove a Wound Marker from this Army Card. Then, if there are 2 or fewer Wound Markers on this Army Card, flip it.

SUPER STRENGTH
That also looks pretty similar to Splash's original take, now that I double-check, which I see as a good sign that I'm at least somewhat on the right track.
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  #62  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 06:45 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
I don't see how the card fails to function as was written previously. Is there a reason or rule about flip cards, or is it just "that's the way its been done"?
From an art perspective...using a different figure requires two sets of cards for targets and the mini version of the cards. So at that point...it's two cards.

While it may not be a rule written down, the intent of the flip cards is for figures that have two sets of powers/personalities/etc but in the same physical package...ie same mini. This has been the case for all the designed flip cards which I believe has only been one.

So you just need to be ok with knowing that you don't have all the information and just take the word of the Heroes that have already spoken.

I say this will full respect as I think I understand you a little since you seem to be a lot like my son actually, but the folks on this site, in our conversations, we don't always use the precise wording that you are needing at that moment. So my phrasing of "usually" was not meant as a "well in the first 10 flip designs we used the same figure 9 times so Usually..."

So sorry if my wording confused you there.

But 100% of all Flip cards have been using the same figure. And I know for certain that at some point several of us were contemplating when it should be appropriate to use a flip card and one of the comments was "same figure". I thought it was in Killer Frosts thread since I'm 99% sure I said it to Bats. And he asked me specifically at some point since he knew I've been fully invested in the show if Snow and Frost were justifiable as a single figure. But knowing how detailed you are...if it were in that thread you would have seen it. So I'm guessing it happened in a workshop thread.

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  #63  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 08:37 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Well this seems to have gotten a little out of hand...

I think it wisest to follow the established precedent of a single figure, so it's probably best to ditch the flip idea. Like tickle said, there have been ways to tie designs together.
Off Thunderbolt:
Quote:
SUMMONED TO SERVE
Thunderbolt does not start the game on the battlefield. He must be switched/swapped with Doctor Jeckyll with the Sole Command special power.
It could be as simple as putting something like this on Hyde:
Quote:
THE EVIL WITHIN
Mister Hyde does not start the game on the battlefield. He must be placed onto the battlefield by a figure with the Whatever On Doctor Jeckyll's card special power.

Also Event Hero is definitely something best reserved for Space Gods and the like. If we don't want him to be controllable that could go in one of his powers. Also there's no reason Hyde can't function the same in game as Abomination or someone (glyphs, etc.). I'd also say his size should be Medium, Hyde rides in a carriage a lot in Vol 2, he's big but it's clear he can still fit. Again Hulk and Abomination are Medium 6.
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  #64  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 09:32 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

@japes , If that's the way it has to be, then I guess that's just the way it has to be. I'll be hawkishly watching for that Werewolf release.

Your son sounds like a cool dude. I should probably go throw a vote to Tony Stark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I know for certain that at some point several of us were contemplating when it should be appropriate to use a flip card and one of the comments was "same figure". I thought it was in Killer Frosts thread since I'm 99% sure I said it to Bats. And he asked me specifically at some point since he knew I've been fully invested in the show if Snow and Frost were justifiable as a single figure. But knowing how detailed you are...if it were in that thread you would have seen it. So I'm guessing it happened in a workshop thread.
Closest I can find:
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
For the record I never envisions the Flip card as an automatic you change figures. I'd assumed there would be characters that just didn't change appearance at times as well. Also we have lots of cards already Emma I for instance that have transformations that aren't depicted with figures. I personally switch Emma I but that's just a personal thing and allows me to not have to worry about a marker.
--
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
Has Hyde been shown to be resistant to mind control in any way? Other than that, figures changing size in vehicles can already happen and is kind of just part of the "game, not simulation" ethos. And one panel of a character saying something doesn't seem like justification for a character being unable to hold items. (His range number can already be modified in other ways, such as Mister Sinister.)
Mister Sinister can only modify Unique Heroes.
Jekyll shouldn't be able to pick up any weapon, like an energy ring and roll the D20 to blast someone, because he's unable to harm. And this is pure speculation on my part, but I also assume he would not drive, as folks with certain ailments can't drive, because it's too risky to get behind the wheel if, say, something like a seizure happened. On top of that, Jekyll is heavily medicated in order to maintain control.


Interestingly, that first bit about his metabolism probably explains why unlike the other characters, Jekyll is never shown eating, only taking medicine/pills. Hyde probably eats more than enough for him as well.
Spoiler Alert!

As far as being resistant to mind control, the Event Hero protection is different from Mental Shield. Lots of powers that refer to Mental Shield should still work on him. Hyde does have a strong mind/will though, as he's basically unrestricted negative emotion personified.

The brilliant detective, Dick Donovan was having a very difficult time negotiating with Hyde. Though he must have reasoned with him at some point, because Hyde does eventually help him.
In Campion's words, Hyde's "a tough nut to crack."


(Also, cool detail, Hyde is probably looking right at Campion and the group because the Two-Way glass doesn't impair Hyde's vision.)
Full page:
Spoiler Alert!

Hyde should also be immune to auto-destruction, as we saw him "go the distance" at least once, twice if you count the time he was hit with the heat ray outside the Martian crater.

Satanus' thread is a huuuuge discussion about what qualifies a figure for Event Hero. It's even pointed out that at some point, Satanus was mind controlled by Thoth. But overall, it seemed to be the right call for the character at the time. Although it appears that later on T-Spinny had some regret:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
He has no synergy and I would like to LD Thoth someday, where Satanus is enlarged and breathes fire. That would be the Event version.

Within the thread though, Bats says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I think Mr. Mxy is proof enough that we based Event Hero status on two things: 1. The theme of the character 2. What we want to accomplish mechanically.
I think mechanically and thematically Event is right for Jekyll/Hyde. Lack of synergy is appropriate for the character, as he is in his nature "alone."

I like the Arthur reference , but once Hyde is out, he should stay out. Doesn't really make sense to have him revert to Jekyll mid-battle, nor does it sound fun to have to start rolling to release Hyde again.

I also don't think multiple powers reflected under one power is bad. Mystic Power Drain is autowounding, healing, power stealing, and an additional turn. Unstoppable Brute is 3 easy to understand powers in 3 sentences. If I can manage to keep him as Event, I suppose the first line can be scratched, since he's already immune to auto-destruction.

I'd rather the Mina thing be a second turn rather than additional dice, because he never holds back ever. But when he was avenging Mina, he took extra time. And for the middle sentence, if he's not ripping apart crowds of commons, then we've failed to represent Hyde, as that's what he does in every single fight.
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  #65  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 10:17 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Makeshift Design Directory

Completely workshopped
Invisible Man I think?

toyhandle's updated designs
Mina Murray
Allan Quatermain
Captain Nemo
Invisible Man
Doctor Jekyll & Mister Hyde

Splash's updated (hopefully) designs

Karat's Allan Quatermain

Gardevoir's League (2013)

Figure ideas (thanks to Spidey'tilIDie, Dr Jekyll, toyhandle, and Gardevoir.)
Quote:
Allan Quatermain -
Horrorclix Tracker (minus the dog and maybe some added painty beardwork)
Spoiler Alert!

or Heroclix Bishop repaint
Spoiler Alert!

or
Reaper John Kincaide
Quote:
Mina Murray -
Bioshock Heroclix Elizabeth (or another figure in old Victorian dress, will likely need some repaint)
Spoiler Alert!

or Heroclix Jeanette
Spoiler Alert!

or
Spoiler Alert!

or
Reaper Witch Hunter
or
Reaper Victorians (on the right)
Quote:
Captain Nemo -
Assassin's Creed Heroclix The Guardian (most likely needs modding, sword and a painted beard at the very least)
Spoiler Alert!

or Heroclix Spartoi Elite repaint
Spoiler Alert!

or Bioshock Heroclix Slate
Spoiler Alert!

Assassin's Creed Heroclix The Bombardier
Spoiler Alert!

Bioshock Heroclix Zachary Hale Comstock
Spoiler Alert!

or
Reaper Captain Nemo
Quote:
Invisible Man -
Honestly any figure we can pry the trenchcoat off of and stand up on a base; Spidey'tilIDie suggested this Heroclix Roy Raymond Jr. with Invisible Kid's head
Spoiler Alert!

or
Possibly this Professor X clix cut off the floaty stuff and it'll just look like he's running (maybe optional paint on the coat or the face makeup, although we might wanna save this figure for an Astral Plane Xavier idk?)
Spoiler Alert!

other transparent heroclix: Gentleman Ghost, Martinex, Invisible Kid, Prism
Negative Man idk
or
Reaper Victorians (middle)
Quote:
Doctor Jekyll -
Wizkids Heroclix Dr Jekyll (just found this one, cheap and available, no work needed!)
Spoiler Alert!

or alternatively
Horrorclix Dr Henry Jekyll
Spoiler Alert!
Quote:
Mister Hyde -
Heroclix Hulk Infinity Challenge
Spoiler Alert!

or alternatively
Heroclix Hulk Xplosion (or really any Hulk with a ripped shirt)
Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by Splash; December 4th, 2021 at 06:11 PM.
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  #66  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 11:14 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Hot take - do we need Jekyll at all? If what toy is saying is true and he's literally incapable of doing any fighting, is he just a way to delay you from getting to the figure you actually want to use?

I cleaned up the OP a bit. Just want to be clear that it was me and that I wasn't trying to be a jerk, just wanted to make it a bit easier to get to the functional information.
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  #67  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 11:20 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Vol 2 he's almost Hyde the whole time. We could design Hyde to function more solo and then add in Jekyll later with a bunch of Hyde dependent powers later (Billy Batson style, oh I guess those were designed concurrently, well you get the idea).

Last edited by Splash; October 23rd, 2021 at 11:39 PM.
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  #68  
Old October 24th, 2021, 10:38 AM
LordVenoc LordVenoc is offline
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Some quick thoughts across the designs:

Mina:
Actively dislike her taking turn with "figures". Its just a blatant cheat to try to get around the Event Hero thing (which I don't think Hyde should be) and makes for a weird synergy thing in the case of commons or squads that would potentially have the personality.

Allan:
Ditch Avenger in the first title. The word is being consistently used in Avengers powers. I'd also switch his defensive thing to an unblockable. Flat out autowounds is pretty strong.

Invisible Man:
I actually liked the mechanical synergy I saw at one point of Mina adding to initiative for each Extraordinary personality and Invisible Man keying solely off the initiative roll. Same ultimate result, but helps him feel useable outside of Extraordinary builds (which I feel all but the core synergy piece should have.

Jekyl/Hyde:
First, I don't feel he needs to be an Event Hero. Unless you've actually seen him resist mind control and if people legitimately feel he should resist destruction powers he doesn't need that. I'd also prefer to see the Mina callout swapped to a class thing, like an Order Marker first revealed on a Leader figure (or whatever class Mina is). This keeps him useable outside LoEG builds, and I'm generally opposed to SI name callouts unless there is a very strong relationship between the characters, like, marriage level connection.
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  #69  
Old October 24th, 2021, 11:37 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
Hot take - do we need Jekyll at all?
Absolutely, he's a part of the team. My Mr. Hyde draft doesn't rely on Jekyll, but accessing Hyde through Jekyll is an essential part of the experience of playing Edward Hyde.

Even though Jekyll was absent in Vol. 2 after the initial transformation, Vol. 2 takes place during the very brief span of August 5-9.
https://lxg.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline#cite_ref-230

As I mentioned before, Hyde refers to Jekyll as though he's still alive. He specifically says that with the Martians around, Jekyll would get them both killed, and if he goes out, its on his terms. Entirely possible that if somehow Hyde had survived the Martian invasion, Jekyll would return.
Spoiler Alert!

Jekyll transforming or not transforming is always a dramatic moment. Rolling to transform adds some drama and strategy to the character.
Spoiler Alert!

With the transformation unblockables, it offers a choice. Do I want to attack my own Jekyll early on, and waste the unblockables, but get him out early? If I'm the opponent, do I want to attack Jekyll to hopefully kill Hyde early and avoid the unblockables, or I do want to ignore him?

I'm not convinced a two-figure flip card is not possible. Case in point:



Why can Red Skull modify a special attack roll, even though the rules specify against that? Because the power spells it out. Exactly as I did in my draft, exactly as was stated here about the Werewolf draft:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
Sure, and he built that into his power where it was not built into the power either here or for Emma Frost.
But even if duel Jekyll/Hyde gets voted against for some arbitrary rule that may or may not exist, that doesn't mean we shouldn't do Jekyll at all. We'll just have to make it work.
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  #70  
Old October 24th, 2021, 11:52 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordVenoc View Post
Some quick thoughts across the designs:
Mina:
Actively dislike her taking turn with "figures". Its just a blatant cheat to try to get around the Event Hero thing (which I don't think Hyde should be) and makes for a weird synergy thing in the case of commons or squads that would potentially have the personality.
I'd be fine with it specifying Unique or Event, this is the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, not Extraordinary Groups.
Quote:
Allan:
Ditch Avenger in the first title. The word is being consistently used in Avengers powers. I'd also switch his defensive thing to an unblockable. Flat out autowounds is pretty strong.
Agreed on both accounts. Went with Extraordinary Avenger because it's a version of Namor's Water Avenger and Angel (Liam)'s Dark Avenger, neither of which seem in reference to The Avengers. Not attached to the name either way.
Quote:
Invisible Man:
I actually liked the mechanical synergy I saw at one point of Mina adding to initiative for each Extraordinary personality and Invisible Man keying solely off the initiative roll. Same ultimate result, but helps him feel useable outside of Extraordinary builds (which I feel all but the core synergy piece should have.
Yeah, we're going this route. Definitely better.
Quote:
Jekyl/Hyde:
First, I don't feel he needs to be an Event Hero. Unless you've actually seen him resist mind control and if people legitimately feel he should resist destruction powers he doesn't need that. I'd also prefer to see the Mina callout swapped to a class thing, like an Order Marker first revealed on a Leader figure (or whatever class Mina is). This keeps him useable outside LoEG builds, and I'm generally opposed to SI name callouts unless there is a very strong relationship between the characters, like, marriage level connection.
I don't see the reason to get hung up on resisting mind control specifically. Already went into detail that he has a strong mind and indomitable personality, on top of the other thematic Event qualities, no vehicles, no e-glyphs, no auto-destruction. He had had all his skin burnt off and he shrugged it off, and got up to destroy a Martian Tripod, when normally that would reduce someone to bones.
We already know Satanus has been mind controlled. Can Old One Eye resist Mind control? Certainly not Godzilla. Evil Ernie? Axe Cop? Thanos w/o the Mind Gem?

And I already showed the images, but Hyde's relationship with Mina is specific to her and no one else. He doesn't listen to anyone else.

The series ends in Tempest some 100+ years into our future with a newish/revived/cloned-ish Hyde born from the original's skeleton out of the Fountain of Youth, with Mina and him dancing to a song called Immortal Love.
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  #71  
Old October 24th, 2021, 12:41 PM
LordVenoc LordVenoc is offline
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
I don't see the reason to get hung up on resisting mind control specifically. Already went into detail that he has a strong mind and indomitable personality, on top of the other thematic Event qualities, no vehicles, no e-glyphs, no auto-destruction. He had had all his skin burnt off and he shrugged it off, and got up to destroy a Martian Tripod, when normally that would reduce someone to bones.
We already know Satanus has been mind controlled. Can Old One Eye resist Mind control? Certainly not Godzilla. Evil Ernie? Axe Cop? Thanos w/o the Mind Gem?

And I already showed the images, but Hyde's relationship with Mina is specific to her and no one else. He doesn't listen to anyone else.

The series ends in Tempest some 100+ years into our future with a newish/revived/cloned-ish Hyde born from the original's skeleton out of the Fountain of Youth, with Mina and him dancing to a song called Immortal Love.
I mostly referenced the mind control element as it had been brought up before. So that was more intended as a "one panel of something about mind control being mentioned doesn't necessarily make it a qualifier to me." The resilience thing is already captured within his powers, and he hardly needs a second thing adding to it.

Event Hero is also about intentional cutting out of synergies based on the character and also the level they're working at. IMO, there should rarely be dispute about whether or not a particular character qualifies as an Event Hero. If something is part of the normal heroic team of the story, that isn't an Event to me.
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  #72  
Old October 24th, 2021, 12:57 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

In the comics, in that scene, Jekyll chooses not to use an armament, because Hyde is a big bruiser type. Hulk would probably run past a gun on the ground to punch somebody. Does not mean every big buff Mutate who knows their fist is preferable to a gun should be Event. Also Jekyll knowing better than to drink and drive doesn't really factor in either. I did mention that Hyde was pretty comfortable riding around in a carriage most of Vol 2. Auto-destruction is covered in his powers.
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