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  #49  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 08:07 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Any thoughts on the Hyde write-up?
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  #50  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 10:42 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

I'll be honest, toy, I felt a bit of information overload looking at this thread, so I tapped out for a bit.

I think he has too much going on. A flip/change figure like this is always going to err more on the complex side, but then both No Restraints and Unstoppable Brute feel like 2-3 effects all jammed into a single power. With a character like this, I'd be looking at 1-2 simple powers max on each side, in addition to the flipping stuff. The Infrared Vision and the bond with Mina seem most important on the Hyde side.

General hint, if you ever find yourself trying to make a character Event because they're complex, see if you can pare down. I don't really see a reason to justify him as Event otherwise.
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  #51  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 11:18 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Flip cards use a single figure. If you are figure swapping, it needs to be two separate cards.
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  #52  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 11:36 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
General hint, if you ever find yourself trying to make a character Event because they're complex, see if you can pare down. I don't really see a reason to justify him as Event otherwise.
I want him to be event because:
1. Opponents not being able to control Hyde is very Hyde. That first line in No Restraints is also to show that he won't even take orders from his own teammates, unless its Mina.

2. No shenanigans where Jekyll is driving a vehicle, and somehow switches to Hyde, and weird stuff happens.

3. No picking up E-Glyphs. Jekyll won't accept Nemo's pistol, because "[Hyde is] too big to need one." This ensures that Hyde's range number won't be changed, so that eliminates the need to have any mention about Jungle not providing extra defense.



4. Also because he's complex.

I don't mind him being scaled back. I like the design approach of starting off with a lot, and chiseling off/polishing down the extra bits.


EDIT: Wouldn't mind if he didn't flip back and forth during the game. A single transformation into Hyde would be fine.
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  #53  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 11:50 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Updated without all the flipping back and forth.

Quote:
NAME = DOCTOR JEKYLL
SECRET IDENTITY = HENRY JEKYLL

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 3

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 0
DEFENSE = 2

POINTS = ?

“NO DRIVES”
Start the game with this Army Card flipped to this side, and Edward Hyde’s figure on this card. Henry Jekyll may not make any leaving engagement attacks, or attack any figures.

MAINTAIN CONTROL
Anytime Jekyll is attacked, receives wounds, or is destroyed, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 11 or higher, remove the Jekyll figure from the game, place the Edward Hyde figure on the space previously occupied by Jekyll, and flip this card. Before flipping this card, remove all Wound Markers on this card, and roll two unblockable attack dice against each opponent's figure adjacent to Hyde, one at a time.

-----

NAME = MISTER HYDE
SECRET IDENTITY = EDWARD HYDE

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = BRUTE
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE 7

LIFE = 6

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 7
DEFENSE = 6

“NO RESTRAINTS"
Edward Hyde cannot take a turn unless you revealed a numbered Order Marker on his card, or on the card of a Mina Murray figure you control. When Hyde attacks a figure on a Shadow Tile, the defending figure does not receive any additional defense dice for the Shadow Tile, and whenever a special power refers to the Blind Warrior special power, it refers to this special power as well. Hyde's special powers cannot be negated.

UNSTOPPABLE BRUTE
Once per round, if Edward Hyde would be destroyed by receiving wounds, place or remove Wound Markers until he has 2 Life remaining. Before attacking, choose up to 2 small or medium figures adjacent to Hyde to receive 1 wound. If a Mina Murray in your army has 3 or more Wound Markers on her card, after taking a turn with Hyde, take one additional turn with him, and you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

SUPER STRENGTH
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  #54  
Old October 22nd, 2021, 11:57 PM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Flip cards only use a single figure. If you’re changing figures it can’t be a flip card.
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  #55  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 12:01 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Flip cards do typically use one figure. When it requires two figures its usually two cards.
Doesn't sound like it needs to be two cards, just that that's typical. If its two cards, there's no point in drafting Jekyll. He's meant to inhibit a powerful figure. What would he cost?
Jekyll/Hyde should be 1 card with a shared cost.

Kamala Khan's Embiggen's "For the remainder of the round... her size and height become large 10." is fine, because its only for a round.

But Hyde's size and height is constant, so he should be a different figure.
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  #56  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 12:18 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordVenoc View Post
Flip cards use a single figure. If you are figure swapping, it needs to be two separate cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
Flip cards only use a single figure. If you’re changing figures it can’t be a flip card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toyhandle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Flip cards do typically use one figure. When it requires two figures its usually two cards.
Doesn't sound like it needs to be two cards, just that that's typical. If its two cards, there's no point in drafting Jekyll. He's meant to inhibit a powerful figure. What would he cost?
Jekyll/Hyde should be 1 card with a shared cost.

Kamala Khan's Embiggen's "For the remainder of the round... her size and height become large 10." is fine, because its only for a round.

But Hyde's size and height is constant, so he should be a different figure.
Two Heroes have told you that it needs to be the same figure if it’s a flip cards. You can certainly design it in a way where you cannot play Hyde without Jekyll.
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  #57  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 12:28 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Jekyll would be 0 points?

“NO DRIVES”
This figure must be in the same army as Edward Hyde...

“NO RESTRAINTS"
This figure must be in the same army as Henry Jekyll...

I don't see how the card fails to function as was written previously. Is there a reason or rule about flip cards, or is it just "that's the way its been done"?
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  #58  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 05:40 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

Went through the Book of Killer Frost to see if there was some sort of rule or reason.
Looks like there was a lot of debate as to whether or not Caitlin should have her own mini. Near the very end of the thread, it suggests that there might be a separate thread in-sanctum about flip card mechanics specifically.

Apparently there is a Werewolf design by LP that features a two-figure flip mechanic, talked about in this post here:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...&postcount=195

Sounds similar to the AotP flip card Arlinn Kord:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=53120

But in regards to why Frost doesn't change minis, but the Werewolf does,
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
Sure, and he built that into his power where it was not built into the power either here or for Emma Frost.
So it doesn't seem out of the question to have a two-figure flip card, as long as the mechanics mention it. Several members seemed to have an expectation of figure replacement w/ card flipping on certain characters, and no one seemed opposed to two-figure flip cards. But again, there might be info I'm not privy to.

Johnny drafted this ruleset, which references switching figures:
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Flip Cards
This card has two faces. In C3G, some cards can be "flipped" - these cards will tell you which side starts face-up, and how that flip is triggered. A card with two faces is always the same card, but only the information on the side that's face up is active; reference those stats, special powers, hit zones, and more. When a card flips, all markers (Order Markers, Wound Markers, and so on) remain on that card. The other face may have a different figure; if so, switch those figures. Whether the figure is switched or not, after flipping a card, the unit on the battlefield is treated the same as it was before the flip.

That's a rough draft.
I'm curious to see how the ruleset evolved.

Last edited by toyhandle; October 23rd, 2021 at 06:00 AM.
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  #59  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 09:09 AM
LordVenoc LordVenoc is offline
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

The werewolf is not completed. Two figures is two cards. Even the original draft of the idea was just that, a draft.
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  #60  
Old October 23rd, 2021, 09:16 AM
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Re: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Workshop

To be fair, it has never been a hard or fast rule we've officially made that flip cards can't have 2 figures, that's just something we decided along the way. I'm not entirely opposed to some of them having different figures, but it would be something to push for, not the accepted norm.

(There were some concerns as well, when the concept was originating, about having to buy 2 minis in order to be able to play a single design. I imagine something like this, where figures would need to be modded, would not help with that concern.)

As for the rest of the design, I don't think the flip aspect was what was overly complicated. Like sure, it was complicated, but I think that's kind of expected for a mechanic like that. I definitely appreciate the simplification there, but it's not my primary concern. Let's take a look at Unstoppable Brute, as an example.
Quote:
UNSTOPPABLE BRUTE
Once per round, if Edward Hyde would be destroyed by receiving wounds, place or remove Wound Markers until he has 2 Life remaining. Before attacking, choose up to 2 small or medium figures adjacent to Hyde to receive 1 wound. If a Mina Murray in your army has 3 or more Wound Markers on her card, after taking a turn with Hyde, take one additional turn with him, and you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.
That is, in reality, 3 different effects all jammed into a single power, which makes the power feel very cluttered. In theory, each power a figure has should represent a single mechanic. Of course, in practice, we do sometimes end up cramming multiple effects/mechanics in a single power, often because those mechanics are thematically related/similar. But it's good design practice to try to keep each power to representing 1-2 effects.

Has Hyde been shown to be resistant to mind control in any way? Other than that, figures changing size in vehicles can already happen and is kind of just part of the "game, not simulation" ethos. And one panel of a character saying something doesn't seem like justification for a character being unable to hold items. (His range number can already be modified in other ways, such as Mister Sinister.)

Here is an example of how I would chisel down what you currently have. (Ignoring the flip/separate design debate.)
Quote:
NAME = DOCTOR JEKYLL
SECRET IDENTITY = HENRY JEKYLL

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 0
DEFENSE = 2

POINTS = ???


“NO DRIVES”
Start the game with this Army Card flipped to this side. Doctor Jekyll may not make any leaving engagement attacks, or attack any figures.

MAINTAIN CONTROL
If Doctor Jekyll would receive any number of wounds or be destroyed, flip this card.
Quote:
NAME = MISTER HYDE
SECRET IDENTITY = EDWARD HYDE

SPECIES = MUTATE
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = UNIQUE HERO
PERSONALITY = EXTRAORDINARY

SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE 7

LIFE = 6

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 7
DEFENSE = 6


INFRARED VISION POWER
When Mister Hyde attacks a figure on a Shadow Tile, the defending figure does not receive any additional defense dice for the Shadow Tile.

MINA-CENTRIC POWER
Edward Hyde cannot take a turn unless you revealed a numbered Order Marker on his card, or on the card of a Mina Murray figure you control. If a Mina Murray figure you control has 3 or more Wound Markers on their Army Card, add 2 to Mister Hyde's Attack number.

JEKYLL JEKYLL HYDE JEKYLL HYDE HYDE JEKYLL
At the end of the round, if Mister Hyde is unengaged, you may remove a Wound Marker from this Army Card. Then, if there are 2 or fewer Wound Markers on this Army Card, flip it.

SUPER STRENGTH
That also looks pretty similar to Splash's original take, now that I double-check, which I see as a good sign that I'm at least somewhat on the right track.
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