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  #229  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 11:37 AM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by DanieLoche View Post
- Secondly, as I said, I did not won all my games with them. I lose against a range+rats pod, and neither the best (inclueding Kee-mo-shi to weaken the army ^^) and more competitive one, nor an army specially designed to counter the Cathars. So, a kind of army that should be usual at tournaments.
Well except the Kee-Mo-Shi gimmick thing the army was Kravs+Laglor+rats+Rae if I remember. It's quite competitive.

Also rats+ Rae+ range is one of the only things cathars have trouble against.

--------

The best Cathar build is 4xCathars+Raymond+Kravs+ Isamu, the builds with only 3 squads of cathar are way weaker because Raymond is less gainful.
You can take other things instead of Kravs but I think Kravs are the best because they are very good against ranged squads.

To have the edge against this build you have to take very strong armies:
-Rats+Rae+good range pod (if you play the rats very well, they are way harder to play here than against lassic melee)
-4th
-Stingers+Rae
This is to me the only 3 builds where you have the edge against the cathars.

If you want to have a decent machup there is also not a lot of choices:
- good Dragon + GSW
- vulcanmech incendiborgs
- Cutters

All the others builds will have a hard time against the cathar build: melee gets destroyed, ranged squads take lots of casualties from Kravs then the Cathars can
deal with them and ranged Heroes can be OS by a good cathar rush.

In my tournament games, in the 10 "cathars vs something else" games the Cathars won 9 of them, so 90% winrate.
The only game they didn't win was not with the "perfect" build but with a weaker build (3xCathars, Raymond, Van Nessing, Guilty) and it was they lost in a capture the flag game against a "perfect" DCoT build.

This is way more impressive than rats winrate (64% over 14 games) or Raelin winrate (60% over 35 games) or Kravs (63% over 22 games).

I have no shame to say it: Cathars are better than rats in the current meta due to the ton of road on the maps and the high number of special attacks.

To me it's clear the the cathars belongs to the "near OP" category. They should be A.
Ranking them alongside something like Krug is definitely not appropriate...


Last edited by Foudzing; September 22nd, 2014 at 12:18 PM.
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  #230  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:22 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Ironically, Krug and Arrow Gruts is an excellent Cathar counter.

Some comments:
  1. What you found was a phenomenal Krav army, not just a Cathar army. What you're doing there is covering the weaknesses of the Cathar with the Krav, and vice versa.
  2. A number of those wins, I think, were kind of trick wins. You were playing bring 2 and you had brought another army (featuring the 10th) that looked appealing to those who weren't yet wise to the spearmen's matchup strengths. Those games were basically autowins for you. Which, I mean, good on you for creating a trick set of builds like that, but it really pumps up the winrate.
  3. I don't think that it's fair to compare your Cathar winrate there with the winrates you have for rats/Raelin/Krav. Because everyone knows how good those cards are, you have never built them an optimal army the way you did for the Cathars (except of course when you put the Krav with the Cathars). You've played some fairly janky builds involving rats or Raelin (as have I!) to try to temper their power. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
  4. There's a number of other builds that I certainly like against the Cathar that you didn't mention. That Cathar/Krav army, which is pure grade A cheese, is of course harder to counter. But I still think the classic knights/vikings/ranged unique combo could top it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I have no shame to say it: Cathars are better than rats in the current meta due to the ton of road on the maps and the high number of special attacks.
I don't think so. Rats get pushed down a lot in the online meta because basically nobody plays classically strong rat builds. This really colors your perception a lot.
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  #231  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:42 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post

To have the edge against this build you have to take very strong armies:
-Rats+Rae+good range pod (if you play the rats very well, they are way harder to play here than against lassic melee)
-4th
..
Sorry but I can't see why the rats should be harder to play against the Cathars? You just have to block the way to you range pod without engaging the Cathars... nothing "way harder" than usual. ^^


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  #232  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:42 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Rats get pushed down a lot in the online meta because basically nobody plays classically strong rat builds.
Kudos to the online players! I would actually entertain playing in a non-rat environment. Any chance the 4th Mass are also trending downward?

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  #233  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:48 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Ironically, Krug and Arrow Gruts is an excellent Cathar counter.
Actually...yes.
But Kravs can have a slaughter on Arrows Gruts.
But Krug + Arrows gruts is 10 times less versatile than Cathars+ Kravs.
And Krug alone is really hard to play against something competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
What you found was a phenomenal Krav army, not just a Cathar army. What you're doing there is covering the weaknesses of the Cathar with the Krav, and vice versa.
Well when we are talking about very good units we have to take the strongest build.
The A+ units are well etablished there mostly because of your Q9+Rae+rats+Hydra build where everyone cover everyone.

For example in trading cards games when a card gets nerfed it's in order to nerf a specific deck. One important card of the decks pays the price but it's not necessary that card alone which is op.

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  #234  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:50 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Rats get pushed down a lot in the online meta because basically nobody plays classically strong rat builds.
Kudos to the online players! I would actually entertain playing in a non-rat environment. Any chance the 4th Mass are also trending downward?
To some extent. They certainly show up a lot less than they do at Gencon.

It's really all about "bring 2" and other draft-ish formats where you could end up playing against the armies you bring. It really makes people not want to bring the cheese all the time.

I probably bring rats about as much as anyone to our events, but they are always played alongside something other than the ranged cheese. Playing rats with Krug/Brunak/Shurrak/Ornak, or with the Varkanaan squads, isn't really the same as playing them with Q9.
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  #235  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 12:56 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanieLoche View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post

To have the edge against this build you have to take very strong armies:
-Rats+Rae+good range pod (if you play the rats very well, they are way harder to play here than against lassic melee)
-4th
..
Sorry but I can't see why the rats should be harder to play against the Cathars? You just have to block the way to you range pod without engaging the Cathars... nothing "way harder" than usual. ^^
Basically because engaging the figures > blocking the way.

Also you have way less hexes avalaible to play around, it's more difficult to get height or to block the important hexes.

One of the big strengh of rats is that if you engage a figure with two rats she can't move at all you can't do that against cathars you can just block the way not block the figures.

On some maps which are quite narrow rats are as good against cathars as against something else but on open maps they are clearly less strong, because it's way harder to block the way and you can't block the figures.

I overextended a bit on the "way harder" tho,but it's definitely harder on certain maps.

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  #236  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 02:09 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I'm interested in feedback. I'm curious to hear what people think, and why. I *greatly* appreciate Foudzing's attempt to quantify his own experience with the Cathars, though I also appreciate Dok's effort in putting those numbers in perspective. Both of those posts were, to me, very informative.

I will be curious to see what the future holds for the unit. For myself, I'm just listening, and being patient, and I hope others will adopt a similar approach. Certainly I do not see anything that looks like an emergency.

Thank you all so much for being vigilant, and for holding us to the highest standards. As others have said, we do not set out to release "A" units, but it will happen from time to time. As others have said, we are always trying to improve, and hold ourselves to the highest standards as well. Also - again cribbing from the conversation above - a periodic "A" unit is something we routinely got from the original designers, which is not quite saying that it's something we try to do. It is not.

But whether the Cathars really upset the metagame apple cart, or whether they are a powerful-but-not-overpowerful unit forcing people to learn to play against them, we will see.

Again, many many thanks for the feedback.

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  #237  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 03:01 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Also - again cribbing from the conversation above - a periodic "A" unit is something we routinely got from the original designers, which is not quite saying that it's something we try to do. It is not.
My guess is the original designers released "A" units in much the same way we do - (mostly*) unintentionally. I'm sure they strove for balanced gameplay and we do the same.

* Quahon was an instance where we wanted to release a unit comparable to Nilfheim, knowing that Nilfheim is considered an A or A- figure. The intention was to make a unit that was to Nilfheim what the 10th Foot are to the 4th Mass - that is, one that would cause a lot of discussion about which one players preferred. Judging by what I've seen since Quahon's release, I think we succeeded.
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  #238  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 03:22 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Also - again cribbing from the conversation above - a periodic "A" unit is something we routinely got from the original designers, which is not quite saying that it's something we try to do. It is not.
My guess is the original designers released "A" units in much the same way we do - (mostly*) unintentionally. I'm sure they strove for balanced gameplay and we do the same.

* Quahon was an instance where we wanted to release a unit comparable to Nilfheim, knowing that Nilfheim is considered an A or A- figure. The intention was to make a unit that was to Nilfheim what the 10th Foot are to the 4th Mass - that is, one that would cause a lot of discussion about which one players preferred. Judging by what I've seen since Quahon's release, I think we succeeded.
Surprise! See @Foudzing , they do have a plan, mister Anti-Quahon. It was all a shell-game to see who you prefer.
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  #239  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 03:40 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I played a game against DanieLoche at the french Heroscape tournament last year. He played :

4x Lanciers Cathares, Comte Raymond, Kaemon Awa, Kira Jax, Isamu

and I played

Eltahale, Major Q10, 3x Phantom Knights, Marro Warrior

He won the game, but it was really close. The game ended in a duel between Eltahale (wonded) and Raymond, who was the last standing figures in each armies.

During the same tournament, I took photo of a whole game played by DanieLoche. Here is the battle report
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  #240  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 04:10 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quahon was an instance where we wanted to release a unit comparable to Nilfheim, knowing that Nilfheim is considered an A or A- figure. The intention was to make a unit that was to Nilfheim what the 10th Foot are to the 4th Mass - that is, one that would cause a lot of discussion about which one players preferred. Judging by what I've seen since Quahon's release, I think we succeeded.
It's simple, if you want to win easily thanks to luck you should prefer Quahon.

Quahon is 10x more random than Nilfheim but not in a way that makes her weaker, in a way that if you have some luck on keys LBSA you'll win no matter what.

Exactly the same way that if you roll the good keys defenses with Q9 you'll win no matter what.

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