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  #4513  
Old March 30th, 2021, 01:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
I tried her out originally without Darklord bonding and only with Undead. Giving up Order Marker 1 wasn't worth it for the boost, even a universal move and attack boost. I felt like in the category Undead, the extra attack was either irrelevant (due to special attacks, eg Thralls), didnt make a huge difference (already sufficiently high attack eg Aquilla Wolves) or really needed (Zombies, Shades, etc.)
As you note, Undead tend to either not need the boost or are too sharky to afford to lose an order marker (especially order marker 1). That's true even if the hero herself was good enough to activate, because switching back and forth between units doesn't work well with sharks.

On the other hand, being a bonder takes away the only disadvantage of the power, at least in some armies. In that case it's just a constant +1 move and attack.

In some armies, particularly defender-based, like Sentinels of Jandar, a power like this could work. I don't think it works well with "night creatures," though.
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  #4514  
Old April 6th, 2021, 02:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



This is where I've gotten to with suggestions and testing. I'm looking at resubmitting this to the SoV. It's a bit different than where it was 2 months ago but I think it fits my expectations still. Are there any wording or mechanical problems with this current form?
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  #4515  
Old April 6th, 2021, 04:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't think this version will pass. It's hard for me to really say, since I liked the prior version, but it doesn't feel like this addresses the problems Sanctum members had. And having both Hunter's Howl and Search for Prey feels kind of messy; two powers that do similar things with similar triggers. They could be combined, but overall the effect feels forced and unrefined.

It does handle the "doesn't want to attack" problem pretty well though.
@Dad_Scaper , does this feel more thematically complete to you?
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  #4516  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:00 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Welp, that's unfortunate. The two things that actually defined the unit originally (self bonding and hunter bonding conditionally) are the two things that seem most opposed and unrefined no matter how they are presented.

At that point, I think the only other feasible path is to slap Wulfing Hunter Bonding on them instead of Hunters Howl and have a C ranker until a new sculpt comes out potentially in July. Which I'm not opposed to doing.
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  #4517  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'll preface this by saying, as I've said all along, that I like the mini and I like the theme. Or, at least, what I imagine the theme to be. I also firmly applaud the decision to keep working on a design you believe in. It can take a long time and be frustrating.

Here are some thoughts I have, looking over this new version.

1. Their race is listed as "Wulfing." In other conversations it's been explained to me that they are based on actual humans, from Scandinavia, from days gone by. I love historical units! And when I've talked about design with CVN, he's said the exact same thing! So why are they given the race of "Wulfing," and not simply "Human"? I know that's not what Shiftrex asked, but I do think it's the kind of concern that Scy wanted me to speak to.

2. They appear to have one power based on howling and another based on silence. That seems weird to me.

3. They have two powers that activate others, as Scy said. On the Discord I know I suggested a traditional Bonding power, but now that I look at the card I see that even that would be an issue, with a mass move power mixed in.

I really liked the idea that this is a design that could express hunting in a way that no other card does, and I think that this is quite close. And I know, Shiftrex, that that was your particular goal here, so I'm going to offer a suggestion that will, perhaps, be addition by subtraction.

What if you just dropped Hunter's Howl, and increased the base stats to 4/4? Forget activating a hero. They don't need it. They *all* activate, with Search for Prey, and the mechanics and theme of that hero-activation power keep getting in the way of making a complete design.

That would feel like hunting, to me. What do you think?

edit: You ninjaed in an idea that you would add "hunter bonding." That doesn't really emphasize your theme, though. Strip away everything that isn't part of the *theme*, and only add back in what's necessary. In this case, I don't think your design needs that "activate a hero" piece at all. It's about hunting, not (like the Knights, for instance) marching in a regimented army, with commanders.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; April 6th, 2021 at 08:48 PM.
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  #4518  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:06 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

No reason not to try it. Thanks for the suggestions.

I dont want a human race because then I cant give any future heroes for them mystical powers, because human.
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  #4519  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

From my perspective, I like the idea of both Hunter's Howl and Search for Prey, but it doesn't feel elegant trying to do both. Both offer ways to make for having only two figures in the unit. A more elegant way would be to make a variation of Strategic Bonding.

HUNTER HERO STRATEGIC BONDING
Before taking a turn with the Wulfing Hunters, you may take a turn with a Hunter Hero you control. If you do not take a turn with a Hunter Hero, you may move and attack with up to four Wulfing Hunters.
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  #4520  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:24 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That would also drastically simplify the card. I should have time for about 10 games offline this week so I'll explore both of these ideas.

I think strategic bonding would enable me to have 2 simple powers. And be really fun at the same time.
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  #4521  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Scytale is an excellent designer. It's always a good idea to consider his advice carefully.

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  #4522  
Old April 6th, 2021, 06:31 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I would say follow precisely.
That power name is a bit on the nose though.
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  #4523  
Old April 6th, 2021, 06:52 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Much of what I was going to say has already been said, so to be brief, I agree that Hunters' Howl and Search for Prey would be best combined into one power. I'm also a bit skeptical that both powers are absolutely required, since they each are helping combat the inherent weaknesses of a 2-figure squad, but I could see the decision point being interesting.

Letting all Wulfing Hunters move 2 spaces is fairly concerning to me, though. Outside of 500 point games, that's going to be a lot of free movement for many figures. Obviously, the Granite Guardians already do something similar, but the limit to 1 space, higher cost-per-figure, and lower move makes it feel more reasonable to me. I think that limiting it to up to 6 Wulfing Hunters moving would help by putting a hard cap for the sake of high-point casual games, help speed up the game a bit, and feel more in line with other positioning powers like Protective Repositioning or (more critically) Hunting Party.

The only other qualm that I have is Silent Stalkers as a power name. I've never been super fond of that name, but I think that something evoking "Camouflage" really fits the miniatures fantastically and more immediately paints a picture for why they're invisible when unengaged.

More generally, I have severe reservations that Hunter Strategic Bonding would pass UFR. There were several people expressing sentiment that either (A) Himmelskralle is concerning as a bonding figure or (B) they don't want to see Hunter become a normal bonding class. This version is both better with Himmelskralle and more akin to normal bonding than the previous draft. I don't necessarily share these concerns, but I think that you should be aware that they exist and were a point of tension internally.
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  #4524  
Old April 6th, 2021, 07:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't know if anyone cares what a humble layman has to say, but I do think the first two powers could be combined fairly easily since they contain a near-identical clause:

Quote:
"After taking a turn if any of these guys are engaged then go with a Hunter Hero. If none of them are engaged then you may move however many other Wulfling Hunters you control however many spaces"
It'd be pretty thematic and cool to see Wulflings attack and kill a lone unit in order to get the second bonus and maintain their stealth.

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