The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

I changed the class to Trickster. I didn't really like Wizard much, but didn't know what to pick. Trickster sounds faster, so that accounts for the speed. I want him to have the same move as the Illusions.

How about Illusionist for the class?

As for Move, I think the solution should be to lower the speed of the Illusions, not increase the speed of the Hero. With all this popping-around going on and being able to move all of them each turn, you really don't need high movement for any one of them.

4 Defense is unusually high for a wizard-type. It seems to me he could easily afford to have a lower value here with his ability to swap with his Illusions.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Scytale

4 Defense is unusually high for a wizard-type. It seems to me he could easily afford to have a lower value here with his ability to swap with his Illusions.

ooo...good point. He essentially has an Isamu vanish ability. So on the lucky chance you actually get him to roll defense, he's still rolling 4 (or 5 from height) with 5 life to boot. that's a little scary. Especially because there's no cap on the location or distance an illusion has to be from him.

[ollie]

I liked the original idea, and really like the redrafted version. There's one thing I don't like: the lack of hitzones: "you can't tell it's not real until you're up close" means that you /do/ think that they attackable from a distance. Lack of hitzone should be a really rare trick and I'd be happy if it wasn't used again ever; here it doesn't even quite make sense, never mind the overwhelming case for it I'd like to see.

I also think trimming the various stats (and reducing the price accordingly) makes for a better unit, but as long as the cost matches the value that's not a huge concern.

[Tai-Pan]

Originally Posted by Scytale

How about Illusionist for the class?

As for Move, I think the solution should be to lower the speed of the Illusions, not increase the speed of the Hero. With all this popping-around going on and being able to move all of them each turn, you really don't need high movement for any one of them.

Good idea for class. And I can agree with move.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

ooo...good point. He essentially has an Isamu vanish ability. So on the lucky chance you actually get him to roll defense, he's still rolling 4 (or 5 from height) with 5 life to boot. that's a little scary. Especially because there's no cap on the location or distance an illusion has to be from him.

That's starting to gnaw on the power level and price category. I want to test him some more before going there. With the very significant change of the Deadly Illusions from Common to Unique (for the minis, it makes sense, but I have 2 squads and love the idea of a dangerous Jinn Nasha using hordes of Illusions), I'm wondering how often he will be able to escape, because he needs Illusions to do it. An Illusion is gone as soon as someone moves adjacent to it, meaning they won't be long for the world. The opponent can essentially negate Just an Illusion by targeting the Illusions first - an easy task for any squad. Jinn is more reliant on those defense dice and life points than one might suspect. In contrast to most other wizards, this guy is a melee fighter, meaning engagement is also going to be more of an issue as well. There's also the 25% chance he's going to get swapped in for an Illusion and get caught in a situation he may not have been planning for.

[Tai-Pan]

Originally Posted by ollie

I liked the original idea, and really like the redrafted version. There's one thing I don't like: the lack of hitzones: "you can't tell it's not real until you're up close" means that you /do/ think that they attackable from a distance. Lack of hitzone should be a really rare trick and I'd be happy if it wasn't used again ever; here it doesn't even quite make sense, never mind the overwhelming case for it I'd like to see.

I can see that. I'm having trouble parting from it though. I like the idea of figures that aren't really there with their 0 defense and are vanquished by just touching them, but I figure that can only work if they are immune to range.

Any suggestions that would clean it up and do about the same thing?

Maybe a re-imagination: When firing from a distance, the projectiles go right through them, but they are so shimmery that you can't tell if you maybe didn't just miss them. Only feeling the lack of resistance when your weapon passes through them really proves that they aren't there.

[ollie]

But the shot still happens in that case, which doesn't thematically match a lack of hitzones. That's more like Insubstantial or Thorian Speed in theme/effect.

[Tai-Pan]

I'm not sure on this one....

It would take another power and the card to do and then it would either be an improved Thorian Speed that works on SAs as well or something like Insubstantial 6 or 7. With 0 defense they need to be pretty immune to ranged attacks.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

Good idea for class. And I can agree with move.

That's starting to gnaw on the power level and price category. I want to test him some more before going there. With the very significant change of the Deadly Illusions from Common to Unique (for the minis, it makes sense, but I have 2 squads and love the idea of a dangerous Jinn Nasha using hordes of Illusions), I'm wondering how often he will be able to escape, because he needs Illusions to do it. An Illusion is gone as soon as someone moves adjacent to it, meaning they won't be long for the world. The opponent can essentially negate Just an Illusion by targeting the Illusions first - an easy task for any squad. Jinn is more reliant on those defense dice and life points than one might suspect. In contrast to most other wizards, this guy is a melee fighter, meaning engagement is also going to be more of an issue as well. There's also the 25% chance he's going to get swapped in for an Illusion and get caught in a situation he may not have been planning for.

He is too beefy defensively right now for the theme. I wrote it; a number of others have written it. If it means his price comes down a bit, then it should come down a bit. I think lowering the defense is more thematic, but at least lower the Life to 4.

And if you have two squads of illusions and you want to house rule it as common, then go for it. But remember, when you nominate a unit to the SoV, it's not enough that it's fun to use. It must be as good a design as it can be for the theme, the mini, and the mechanics. And, then, for the community.

You might like him with an extra squad of illusions and non-thematic beefiness, but you aren't proposing here to have a unit for your own enjoyment. You want something that's good enough to be in the canon. Fine. Make it the best it can be. You should not be putting "power level" before theme.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Tai-Pan

I'm not sure on this one....

It would take another power and the card to do and then it would either be an improved Thorian Speed that works on SAs as well or something like Insubstantial 6 or 7. With 0 defense they need to be pretty immune to ranged attacks.

Yep, there are trade-offs. But I think they're ones you have to play with because (in my opinion, at least) the grey hitzones just don't work.

Maybe you could lose Recurring Illusions? You have four illusion powers across the two cards (and they're relatively complex, sometimes really being two powers compressed into one). If not by cutting Recurring Illusions, is there another way to simplify all of that?

I think Insubstantial is the right power to go with if you want this aspect of them caught on the card. Alternatively, I don't think raising the defence to 1, or even 2, would break the theme and it would give them a bit more sturdiness. Fragile and correspondingly cheap could be a successful combination.

There's also an argument that Recurring Illusions would be more natural on the hero's card anyway. You could move that there in place of Double Attack and add Insubstantial X to the Illusions.

Minor clarifying stuff: Not an Illusion only kicks in if Jinn is still on the board, right? It's not intended as a way to bring him back from the dead? And, Just an Illusion currently works against Special Attacks. Are there any problematic interactions here? I'd be inclined to limit it to Normal Attacks.

[Scytale]

I have to disagree with ollie. I see nothing wrong with grey hitzones; I think it's pretty neat, actually, and works well here.

[Sir Heroscape]

Sending out some feelers for this possible submission.

I'm trying to bring in some more options for the Durgeth Ravagers and I think he's definitely bringing some fun and exciting possibilities to them. His Regenerate is in-line with Trolls of heroscape as well as his stats, and his attack ability is a really cool, and a very thematic and unique combination of Valguard's and Othkurik's abilities. I imagine this Troll as a member of the natural habitat of the Durgeth Swamps and thus gaining very thematic bonuses from swamp terrain. It's as if the Durgeth Ravagers make a kill in the swamps, crying out with savagery...calling the attention of the nearby native troll who then springs from the shadows and swamps to take on unsuspecting foes. Thoughts?


EDIT: Just realized I'd change his General to Valkrill though I think...oops
That and his size might actually be more a Large than Huge

[superfrog]

I'll be honest, it's a bit too dependent on swamp for my taste. If you don't have any swamp, it's just really not going to be as fun to play, or nearly as good.