Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Personally I don't think the official Marvel units break the game. Change it, yes, but break it, no. (Although I do kinda wish Cap was at least 230, and you could still play Cap, 3x 4th, Sam [Falcon?], which is still really strong.) I do completely agree however that it's not worth making an entire new list just for those 10 figures, haha.

Pick one.


I think your list looks pretty good overall. I'm personally not too interested in getting into the nitpicking between so many units, so I'll leave that to more capable players such as yourself with more interest/investment in competitive 'scape.

Thanks dude. The nitpicking can become a bit irrelevant it feels sometimes, but I just love dissecting the game competitively, so I tend to do so all the time.

On Marvel, I don't think most of the units "break" the game (Hulk-Red Skull is fine).....but I feel Thanos and Captain America might. I don't play a ton of Mixed Marvel games, I don't think many people do, with mixing the classic scape with the 10 Marvel figures, and not also allowing C3V or C3G. It's kind of a format you only see at GenCon for a single event, and not every year has done it either (most have). Most people probably play the game nowadays either pure classic excluding C3V with Marvel banned, or classic including C3V with Marvel banned, or some C3G formats. I assume not many people restrict themselves to just classic, with Marvel allowed. Because of that, it's not a format that has an extensive list of results and stats.

But yeah, in the case where Marvel is mixed with classic.....I think Thanos and Captain are potentially too good. I assume Mixed Marvel's typical point value is more than 500, like 550pt. or more. At 500pt., though, these two armies worry me:

Captain America
4th Mass x4

and

Thanos
Rats x3
Isamu
Marcu

Cap+4th is pretty unbelievable, he's also I'm sure amazing with many other things, and Thanos with a rat horde where you just use Thanos until he dies, then run away the entire match until he respawns, and then repeat might be the best thing ever. I don't think that many armies can handle Thanos coming back more than once. In 500pt., Captain is probably better, but in 550pt.+, where I think Mixed Marvel probably is the usual, Thanos + Rats gets disgusting. Add MW or another set of rats at 550pt. For 600pt., it gets crazy: Thanos+ratsx4+MW+Fillers, Thanos+ratsx5+Fillers, or Thanos+ratsx4+Raelin. Maybe add Krav to the 500pt. one.

Silver Surfer also has my eye as potentially crazy good. I don't know, didn't someone play SS+Ana Karithon+Raelin and it was godlike? SS/Ana combo is nuts. He also works with 4th. I put him at a 9, wasn't sure.

If I were to ever make a Mixed Marvel list (don't think it's really necessary), 4th Mass would for sure go up to 10.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Really? I mean, sure, Hydras are everywhere in Monster Mash, but since 2012, the number of the two has been pretty equal. Nowadays especially I see more Kaemon (of course, the meta drop in RtW has an impact on that).

It appears to me that I see Hydra(s) like x3 more often than Kaemon. It's just something I've noticed, I don't think you see Kaemon nearly as often as you once did.

I missed the last two GenCons though, so I can't speak for those years.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by kevindola

I struggle with power raking criteria quite a bit, because the criteria all seem fairly ambiguous and each person isn't starting from the same ranking establishment which is 'what is the best performing army for figure X'.

You specifically also mention an army for the unit to succeed. But does that mean success is being measure by more than wins/losses? Personal opinions are going to vary pretty strongly about how the unit is successful.

Isamu is probably the best test case. Clearly Isamu is very good for his points, but also Isamu is rarely going to be a difference maker for his best army over, say, Otonashi. So something else must be going into the rankings besides 'impact to best case army'.

But let's start with a pretty interesting discussion: Knights vs. Heavies.

I think Heavies are the best bonding unit in the game. The short answer would be that I think disengage, 3 def and 5 move > 4 move, 4 defense and is more useful against other top rank armies. (intentionally ignoring bonding targets for quick discussion here)

But we also have to decide what the 'best army' is for each of these units and go from there. I personally think Heavies x3, Grimnak, Nerak, Marcu is one of the best 400 point army you can produce and better than any knight build at that point total. (Knights x3, Gilbert, Finn?) But maybe my opinion changes at different point values. What would you consider the 'best' army for Heavies and Knights?

I'll try to respond to each paragraph in order:

Let me clarify, I think my mindset is how the unit performs and how efficient it is when being used in the best armies possible. Heroscape is a game where you can add anything to your army, so I don't think it's accurate to rate the unit basing it on one single army, but rather, a list of very strong armies that use that unit. For example 4th Mass should be not only judged in an all valiant build (ex: 4thx5+Alastair+Eldgrim), but also in a suicide-Mass build (ex: 4thx4+Braxas). You should keep in mind weighing between both/all, because players are allowed to play both/all and have a good chance of success. Also doesn't have to be different 'types' of a faction, all valiant mass and 'suicide-mass' (as i call it) are pretty different, I also mean consider all the slight variants of, for example, top Gilbert/Knights builds (Gilbert+Knightsx5+Eldgrim, Gilbert+Knightsx4+Alastair, Gilbert+Knightsx3+Finn/Thorgrim+Krav, Gilbert+Knightsx3+Nilfheim/Zelrig, etc.).

There's a lot of weighing and balancing I try to keep in mind throughout. You also want to consider not just 500pt., but 450pt.-550pt., and 400pt.-600pt. It's difficult.

Isamu's a unit that I think will vary a lot between people's personal lists/views. My reasoning I've already said, but basically it's like a second chance at a win for virtually no points, and often, it works. That really convinces me he's a 10, at the top echelon.

I agree with what Orc says here, fillers kind of are their own thing:

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Isamu is over Otonashi in that he is more efficient for his points. For fillers especially, best army doesn't really matter all that much.

I agree, Knights vs. Heavies is a very interesting discussion. Like I said I've always had in my head Knights are the way to go, but both are amazing and I like hearing cases for Heavies. I'll share some more thoughts on it later.

I think it's important to weigh the opinion-changes throughout the different point values for a definitive ranking, like I said above. That's why it's so difficult to rank the Gladiators, for example.

Hmmm @400pt., I think some would argue Gilbert+Knightsx4+Isamu? That might be what I would go with. Finn's great too. But like I said I try to not just look at what I think is the single best, but rather weigh an array of 'best' or 'strongest' armies for the unit depending on the point values.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I feel Heavies vs Knights is an interesting debate that never really was entirely resolved from the army strength minmax days. I feel that Heavies are better at getting wins against the meta; Chomp is ridiculous and 5 move is so important. The Knights are still good obviously but 4 move and 4 defense I think leads to blowout wins or close losses, where Heavies can trade some of that blowout win potential for close wins.

Even head to head I think I take Heavies because you can really abuse Grimnak in melee vs. melee matchups.

It seems to me that Knights are less map-dependent than Heavies are, am I in the minority in thinking this? Not to say Heavies are very map-dependent, but just in comparison. I could be wrong, though, out of the 9/10 units, Heavies are probably what I've played the least. Still have good experience with them....it's not like I've never played them haha, but I have certainly played the Knights more.

@Matthias Maccabeus , you're the master of melee, what are your thoughts on Knights vs. Heavies debate?

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Originally Posted by Cleon

@Matthias Maccabeus , you're the master of melee, what are your thoughts on Knights vs. Heavies debate?

Current meta?
Knights 100% of the time. Only thing that I’d rather have heavies for is rats, and I guess in weird cases, WoA, but that’s Grimnak, not heavies.

It’s hard to differentiate knights and heavies without Grimnak and Gilbert being in the discussion.

Knights without Gilbert is like....Dwarves without Hatamoto...

In all seriousness I would take knights x5 and Gilbert against anything out there and expect to win. Against rats I’d still expect to win, but I would definitely have to work for it.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus

Current meta?
Knights 100% of the time. Only thing that I’d rather have heavies for is rats, and I guess in weird cases, WoA, but that’s Grimnak, not heavies.

It’s hard to differentiate knights and heavies without Grimnak and Gilbert being in the discussion.

Knights without Gilbert is like....Dwarves without Hatamoto...

In all seriousness I would take knights x5 and Gilbert against anything out there and expect to win. Against rats I’d still expect to win, but I would definitely have to work for it.

Sure, Knights are marginally better vs 4th, 10th, and Stingers than Heavies. However, I'd much rather have Heavies against Rats than Knights. I also like Heavies in that matchup vs the Knights because of how stupid Grimnak is vs melee. Even then, it's still a close matchup.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Sure, Knights are marginally better vs 4th, 10th, and Stingers than Heavies. However, I'd much rather have Heavies against Rats than Knights. I also like Heavies in that matchup vs the Knights because of how stupid Grimnak is vs melee. Even then, it's still a close matchup.

I don't think Knights are that bad into rats though, you just have to be persistent. It's a doable matchup.

I think having the edge into 4th, 10th, Stingers, etc. (common range) is very notable though, as when you're playing in field where everyone is trying to win (not a RtW style), you're going to run into those all over. Rats+Range or Rats in general too, of course. Both are abundant, both points are worth mentioning. But do Heavies do better into common range than Knights into Rat-builds? Not sure about that one. Conversely, are Knights into common range better that Heavies into Rat-builds? You have to weigh a lot of things.

Both are equally fine into melee I think. maybe Heavies have an edge. Both have a pretty clear win into the Tier-8 and lower melee units, I don't think it's as important as weighing their matchups into the other 9s/10s.

How do Heavies fair into Greenscales? And Dragons in general? I think I'd take Knights over them. Also, Trons? Both of those are worth mentioning and analyzing.

It's very close, but I think I like the Knights more.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I don't think Knights are that bad into rats though, you just have to be persistent. It's a doable matchup.

I think having the edge into 4th, 10th, Stingers, etc. (common range) is very notable though, as when you're playing in field where everyone is trying to win (not a RtW style), you're going to run into those all over. Rats+Range or Rats in general too, of course. Both are abundant, both points are worth mentioning. But do Heavies do better into common range than Knights into Rat-builds? Not sure about that one. Conversely, are Knights into common range better that Heavies into Rat-builds? You have to weigh a lot of things.

Both are equally fine into melee I think. maybe Heavies have an edge. Both have a pretty clear win into the Tier-8 and lower melee units, I don't think it's as important as weighing their matchups into the other 9s/10s.

How do Heavies fair into Greenscales? And Dragons in general? I think I'd take Knights over them. Also, Trons? Both of those are worth mentioning and analyzing.

It's very close, but I think I like the Knights more.

Heavies all day vs Greenscales. Chomp is brutal against Greenscales who you are paying a premium to defensively buff (Dragon and Raelin). I've never lost with Heavies against a dragon (or Knights for that matter, but I've still never played that matchup against MM...).

Heavies are fine vs common range. Play them well, you win. Mess up, you lose. Pretty standard, Knights don't have much of an edge there. Heavies into Rats is an excellent matchup (I've never lost to Rats with Heavies). Knights into common range is a fine matchup but not as good as the Heavies vs Rats.

Edit: and Trons aren't really a thing anymore, but Chomp is nice there so it's pretty similar (again, maybe Knights have a tiny edge?)

The only reason Knights have an edge is that they can usually get an extra squad compared to Heavies, who really want to invest the 50 in Nerak alongside Grimnak.

[Jexik]

Exactly. That 4th defense die makes the difference. They don't need Raelin or Nerak to be tough. Knights were one of my most-lost-to units, and probably a better choice than Y x 4th Mass even in General Wars. I wonder sometimes if the conventional wisdom is wrong... and it's totally worth it to run Raelin with KoW.

Originally Posted by Cleon

Yeah Warriors of Ashra I was going back and forth between Tier 5 and 6. They're probably 6. WoA+PKs or WoA+Q9 or WoA+Range-Counter are pretty strong armies. They also are very splashable. I remember Jexik splashed them for Day 2 with his Greenscale+Nilf+Raelin army one year. That was cool.

A game that I lost, because menchi leveled me and added Airborne Elite to his KoW army. The WoA did okay in the game though. As a Greenscale player, I'd probably say I was more worried about KoW than Heavies. Mostly ranged armies and rat-podges were what the nilf-scales worked best against.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...5&postcount=55

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Exactly. That 4th defense die makes the difference. They don't need Raelin or Nerak to be tough. Knights were one of my most-lost-to units, and probably a better choice than Y x 4th Mass even in General Wars. I wonder sometimes if the conventional wisdom is wrong... and it's totally worth it to run Raelin with KoW.

A game that I lost, because menchi leveled me and added Airborne Elite to his KoW army. The WoA did okay in the game though. As a Greenscale player, I'd probably say I was more worried about KoW than Heavies. Mostly ranged armies and rat-podges were what the nilf-scales worked best against.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...5&postcount=55

I'm not sure what I'd rather take into the Greenscales. With the Knights you're not as condensed and might have a better time chasing a dragon if the dragon wants to dance around. On the other hand, Grimnak chomp and heavies' disengage will be better at breaking through the pod, if the Greenscale player plays more tight and together.

Depends on the dragon too I suppose.

[Jexik]

I've been thinking a lot about the WoA after this discussion, and was thinking how they're kind of like a melee and common Krav, but the big difference is that they have no real way of forcing your opponent to face them. They have a movement of only 5, and unlike the Heavy Gruts, they only move 3 figures per turn. This means that if your opponent has any real ranged units at all, they can likely properly sequence their threats in such a way as to nullify much what the WoA set out to do. Meanwhile with 6M/7R on the Krav, they are very good at playing keep away and staying at their desired range and tempo, especially if you have any sort of screen.

[Dysole]

I largely agree with Jexik. They are incredibly useful, but it's not always easy to ensure they're only engaging melee units. I did a rock paper scissors thing in the cluster draft at Gencon last year with them. Stingers, Ashra, and PKs. I like them a lot more in formats like bring 2 or a drafting format.

~Dysole, sad but understanding why the drafting formats aren't as likely to be big draws at Gencon