First Reading of the Rule Book

[chas]

I'm putting this thread here, rather than in the Rulebook section, because its going to start out with my first comments upon reading the rule book. My comments are random as I read along, based on the perspective of an old Scaper who knows almost nothing about the MTG Universe. They will be the first comments on my project to bring AotP into Heroscape. Since I don't have the game yet, but have looked over some scans of the army and spell cards, some of these impressions may change.

I've numbered the points for ease of reference if you have comments on them, but feel free to also add your own.

1. I agree with most of the first commentators here and on boardgamegeek; ITS SCAPE. It may be called Scape "Unofficially" or "Scape 2.0," but I find it hard to credit the people who can't see the very close overlaps. So my original intent to Port it into Scape will continue, since Scape is so well developed, and we won't even get the first expansions for months.

2. Three of the five Planeswalkers (main characters) are women. You don't see that everyday in a board game. There must be more PWs as well, who can be added later, since some who know MTG have referred to PWs that can use different color spells.

3. The three scenarios included have set ups and victory conditions identical to Scape, with an addition of having to occupy the central hexes of the board at the end to count for "points left on the board," which is interesting.

4. These three scenarios are 2 Player, 4 Player Teams, and 3-5 Player free for alls. That covers it all nicely for now, and can be easily adjusted as necessary for future tournaments.

5. The Turn Sequence is seriously in need of revision, as important steps are mentioned as an unwritten afterthought! So far my draft Revised Turn Sequence is that suggested by Color Crayons in the Official Rules section in this subforum.

6. Additional expansion types of Army Cards are mentioned but not yet included in this base game: Common Squads, Unique Heroes, Common Heroes, and Artifact Army Cards (Treasure Glyphs and others?).

7. Some different terminology includes your Reserve (figures yet unsummoned) and your card (used) and figure (killed) Graveyards. This will be important, for things like reanimating Zombies from you Graveyard.

8. If a Planeswalker (PW) is destroyed, the only spells that continue to operate are Hidden (played face down) Enchantment Cards already on the board. So the "Kill the enemy PW" victory condition is only sometimes in effect.

9. Movement is exactly as Scape, to the degree of charging one movement point to leave a water hex, as its just flat on these boards, but "considered one level lower." This also works during combat for determining Height Advantage.

10. Combat is also identical to Scape, including Leaving Engagement Attacks, the combat die faces (with different names and face symbols), and well, just everything.

11. Remembering to flip those Hidden Enchantment cards is something we're going to have to learn the hard way, if many are down at the same time.

12. I'm not sure why wound markers go on the base of Common Squads but the Army Card of Unique Squads, but I'm sure that will make sense to me once CS are added to the game.

13. The idiotic Turn Marker Track on the rules page is the same as Scape, and so, like Scape, I won't be using it (we just place Poker Chips in a row on the side). More importantly, since there are no rounds, the marker moves after individual each player turn. So the length of the game at first glance is much shorter than it seems to a Scaper who is used to only moving it after several players have moved.

14. Glyphs are identical in their use and function to original Scape glyphs.

15. The odd and different requirement of having team mates sit next to each other in a team game seems strange. And what if the table is round? When we play team games, after initiative and each team decides who on their team will go first, we require that teams alternate taking their player turns, and will probably continue to do so here. Also,

16. The Point allocation system is identical to Scape, even to usually having each army cost 500 points, which Scape did back at its beginning. They even cost the spell deck, as opposed to its owning PW, at 200 points to make integration with Scape easier! This is one of many indications to me that this is what their common designer, Craig Van Ness, had in mind all the time. Moving further on in development, he's even included a PPF or Points Per Figure cost, to easily count the value of a squad figure in the final scoring, which is very helpful indeed.

17. Various clarifications will be needed soon besides the Turn Sequence as mentioned above, as we begin to play it first as a game unto itself. This has been mentioned by various commentators. Some have stated that the Scape parts are fine, but the rest seems tacked on! How the spells work will probably be the largest area where clarification is needed.

***

Well, that's what I'm thinking so far, after first reading the rules. Playing experience will add to this as well, before I come up with a system for integrating the two games. Currently I'm expecting to get the whole game in about a week and a half by mail, and play it formally with my NYCG4 Group in September, after a couple of regularly scheduled Scape games when its my day to GM, as noted in our NYCG4 thread in the General Discussion section.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by chas

12. I'm not sure why wound markers go on the base of Common Squads but the Army Card of Unique Squads, but I'm sure that will make sense to me once CS are added to the game.

This one is written in a bit of a tricky fashion in the rulebook. You do indeed put wound markers on the base of unique squads because they share common figures. The rule says to put the wounds on the bases of common figures and on the card of unique figures. Why? I imagine that they put it that way due to the fact that the Planeswalker is not a Hero (or a creature).

~Aldin, parsingly

[chas]

Here is the passage to which Aldin refers, from the last paragraph of p.11:

"For each damage dealt, a damage marker is placed either on the base of the figure or on the army card, depending on whether the figure is common or unique. If the figure is common, then any damage markers go on the base, Of the figure is unique, then the damage marker goes on the army card."

However, I assumed that "common" or "unique" referred to the type (class) of the figures, not that the word "common" was used to mean 'identical in the same squad,' as Aldin seems to be doing. So I'm not sure where this leaves us. I don't see that you are supposed to put wound markers on the bases of unique squad figures. But apparently that is what players have been doing, such as Tom Vassel did I think in his video.

[quozl]

Don't regular enchantments continue to function after the planeswalker dies too?

[chas]

That's not clear, based on this:

Planeswalker Rules P7

"If your Planeswalker is destroyed, you cannot play or draw spell cards. Hidden enchant cards can still be triggered."

I guess it depends on how you read "play," meaning either "deploy for the first time" (which you can't do) or "use as previously placed" (which possibly you can).

[quozl]

I just checked.... like a lot of things, it's unclear.

It says, "If your Planeswalker is destroyed, you cannot play or draw spell cards. Hidden enchant cards can still be triggered."

It doesn't say what happens to previously played regular enchant cards.

[Aldin]

I'm reasonably sure that the only enchantments that would cease to function when the Planeswalker dies are the enchantments on the Planeswalker. I really, really wish the rules were explicit about what happens when the last figure on an army card dies. The way I've been playing it is that the card goes to the graveyard and any enchantments attached to the card go to the spell card graveyard. I know that's basically how it functions in MtG, but it isn't clear that it functions that way in AotP. For the Restless Zombies it's an extremely important point.

~Aldin, back from the dead

[ssnover95]

Originally Posted by Aldin

I'm reasonably sure that the only enchantments that would cease to function when the Planeswalker dies are the enchantments on the Planeswalker. I really, really wish the rules were explicit about what happens when the last figure on an army card dies. The way I've been playing it is that the card goes to the graveyard and any enchantments attached to the card go to the spell card graveyard. I know that's basically how it functions in MtG, but it isn't clear that it functions that way in AotP. For the Restless Zombies it's an extremely important point.

~Aldin, back from the dead

This is also important for Jace's spell card that allows pulling cards from opponents' spell graveyards. If a player insists that the enchantment stays and doesn't go to the graveyard when the whole squad is destroyed, that could be a strategy to keep certain cards away which is rather unfair.

[Colorcrayons]

Originally Posted by Aldin

I'm reasonably sure that the only enchantments that would cease to function when the Planeswalker dies are the enchantments on the Planeswalker.

I agree. They should be thought of, and classified as 'permanents'. The logic being that if the creatures that the planeswalker summoned remain in play after the demise of the planeswalker, then so should too the enchantments that they cast. Sorcerys are not permanents. They are temporary effects that go to the graveyard once resolved.

Originally Posted by ssnover95

This is also important for Jace's spell card that allows pulling cards from opponents' spell graveyards. If a player insists that the enchantment stays and doesn't go to the graveyard when the whole squad is destroyed, that could be a strategy to keep certain cards away which is rather unfair.

This has been answered officially by Hasbro in a consistent way. See entries #3-#5:
http://planeswalker-arena.boards.net.../22/living-faq

Originally Posted by chas

12. I'm not sure why wound markers go on the base of Common Squads but the Army Card of Unique Squads, but I'm sure that will make sense to me once CS are added to the game.

Most squad creatures so far seem to be multi wound creatures, unlike those found in heroscape squads.
It is necessary to track wounds on individual models rather than on their army card.
The planeswalkers are singular entities. Wounds dont have to be tracked on the model.

Originally Posted by chas

15. The odd and different requirement of having team mates sit next to each other in a team game seems strange. And what if the table is round? When we play team games, after initiative and each team decides who on their team will go first, we require that teams alternate taking their player turns, and will probably continue to do so here.

Agreed. Interleaved team player turns seems the best way to handle this, like in most games with such an element. We have been suggesting the same and playing it this way.

[nyphot]

Originally Posted by Colorcrayons

Agreed. Interleaved team player turns seems the best way to handle this, like in most games with such an element. We have been suggesting the same and playing it this way.

This is probably the least important of all the rules, but I wanted to point out that this is actually straight from the Heroscape rulebook. I'm looking at p. 6 of SOTM: "If you're playing a team game, teammates should sit next to each other on one side of the table, facing their opponents."

And then strict turn order would have the two teammates move in a row.

I think it's a rule that a lot of us have probably adapted, however, and maybe one that some of us never even saw!

[chas]

Nyphot,

That's hilarious that its in SOTM--some days you just can't win! I actually went back and checked the revised main Master Game Manual for Heroscape before I wrote my post, and didn't see any such rule there. Oh well, as you say--those of us who find out about it again are free to ignore it, and I'm sure my local gang will!

This may be the first case where the Heroscape section of the AotP rules manual needed some editing, so far others have only criticized the newer Planeswalker sections...thanks for pointing it out. I wonder if its in the even newer Battle For The Underdark rules?

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Of course, we'll ignore that, or any other silly rule we don't like. The Gang used to treat 'Scape like Classical music - no changes to the original text allowed (see Embrace the Suck). Now it's more like Jazz - with each Gang member acting as Leader (Host) of our little Quartet, picking and choosing what form each month's game will take, and what rules (from 'Scape, Magic, Football, or whatever) to include or omit.

I know that at least one person has created Spells especially for 'Scape. I wonder how they stack up against Magic's.

As to Common versus Unique Squads, putting Wound markers on the cards of the latter rather than removing units, seems like a great idea. I'd stipulate that the most Wounds they could receive in an attack would be one. It would take at least three attacks to take out a squad of Kozuke Samurai, for example. I'd also limit this change to the melee Unique Squads for obvious reasons (Krav).