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  #265  
Old April 10th, 2014, 04:12 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
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Any-hero bonding gets messy really fast.
"Nonsense!", shouted Ulginesh and Professor X (C3G).
Ulginesh was at the front of my mind when I wrote that. Ulginesh can activate 2 Elf Wizards instead of taking a turn, so if you bond with him you get 3 hero activations in once, and the Elf Wizards are already good.


I've seen the Elf Wizards get decimated be a squad of Marro Warriors before - they're the weakest build in the game!
The Marro Warriors can decimate a lot of different builds--so can Isamu.
They almost utterly annihilated a 500 point army - I know the Marro Warriors are powerful, but this is the only army they've done that to. I admittedly haven't tried them with Haduc, but without him I'd say they clearly were the worst - they're low defence, low attack unless they're positioned just right and you still have all of them and don't have many attacks. They're terrible from my experience.


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  #266  
Old April 13th, 2014, 11:10 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

IS suggested that we shelve Gandalf for a while.

Personally, I'm happy with the following version (note that the small changes from my last playtest version don't affect the playtest results):

Quote:
NAME = GANDALF
GENERAL = JANDAR
SPECIES = MAIA
PLANET = ARDA
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WIZARD
PERSONALITY = WISE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

STATS, MASTER/BASIC
LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 180

BLAZING STRIKE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 4.
Blazing Strike Special Attack affects all figures adjacent to Gandalf. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. After using Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move Gandalf and up to 3 small or medium Unique Heroes you control who were within clear sight of Gandalf when he used his Blazing Strike Special Attack up to 4 spaces. Figures moved by Blazing Strike Special Attack do not take leaving engagement attacks.

LEADER OF THE FELLOWSHIP
After taking a turn with Gandalf, if you did not use Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move up to 3 small or medium Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement adjacent to Gandalf. Figures moved by Leader of the Fellowship do not take leaving engagement attacks.
On the other hand, Capsocrates suggested the following version:

Quote:
NAME = GANDALF
GENERAL = JANDAR
SPECIES = MAIA
PLANET = ARDA
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WIZARD
PERSONALITY = WISE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

STATS, MASTER/BASIC
LIFE = 6
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 130

BLAZING STRIKE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Gandalf are affected by Blazing Strike Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. At the end of your turn, after using Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move Gandalf up to 4 spaces. Gandalf does not take leaving engagement attacks when moving this way.

LEADERSHIP
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 4 small or medium figures you control up to 4 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement within 3 spaces of Gandalf. Figures moved by Leadership do not take leaving engagement attacks.
Whether we restart Gandalf now or later, we'll need to discuss the two versions above and choose one to take forward for more playtesting.
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  #267  
Old April 13th, 2014, 11:22 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Alternatively, we could finalize the version we've extensively playtested:
Quote:
NAME = GANDALF
GENERAL = JANDAR
SPECIES = MAIA
PLANET = ARDA
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WIZARD
PERSONALITY = WISE
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

STATS, MASTER/BASIC
LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 180

BLAZING STRIKE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All opponents' figures adjacent to Gandalf are affected by Blazing Strike Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. At the end of your turn, after using Blazing Strike Special Attack, you may move Gandalf up to 4 spaces. Gandalf does not take leaving engagement attacks when moving this way.

LEADERSHIP
After taking a turn with Gandalf, you may move up to 3 small or medium Unique Heroes you control up to 4 spaces each. Any figures moved by Leadership must end their movement adjacent to Gandalf. Figures moved by Leadership do not take leaving engagement attacks.
And just drop his points to the neighborhood of 150 (give or take 5 or 10). That would probably be my preference, actually, since it would not involve any further playtests or changes and would allow us to use Gandalf in future playtests.

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  #268  
Old April 13th, 2014, 11:40 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

If we finalize Gandalf completely now, we might regret it later, when the power level of the Fellowship could be out of step with its leader. I'm fine with getting to middle ground and leaving him in stasis (with the possibility of small tweaks later) until we've got a better idea of what our Fellowship will look like.
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  #269  
Old April 13th, 2014, 11:50 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
If we finalize Gandalf completely now, we might regret it later, when the power level of the Fellowship could be out of step with its leader. I'm fine with getting to middle ground and leaving him in stasis (with the possibility of small tweaks later) until we've got a better idea of what our Fellowship will look like.


In retrospect starting with Gandalf was probably a bad idea.
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  #270  
Old April 14th, 2014, 11:08 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

There are 3 proposed versions of Gandalf. I'd like to consider the pros and cons of each version:

1) Original Version at 150 points

Pros
This is what we playtested.

Cons
Gandalf doesn't have as much firepower against squads.
Little board control (heroes want to stay clumped together).


2) Stronger Version
+1 Attack for Blazing Strike (4 Attack)
Heroes moving after Gandalf uses Blazing Strike do not have to end up adjacent to him.

Pros
More firepower versus squads.
Fear factor because of his Blazing Strike potential.
More board control (since heroes can scatter after Blazing Strike).

Cons
Higher cost means less support for Gandalf.


3) Lower Points Version
-1 to Life (Life 6)
Move 4 heroes at the end of your turn instead of 3.
Heroes moving at the end of your turn must end up within 3 spaces of Gandalf.

Pros
Moving more heroes allows you to keep support figures nearby.
More board control than the original version.

Cons
Gandalf doesn't have as much firepower against squads.
Less board control. Heroes want to stay close together.

Please feel free to add to these pros and cons. I just wanted to get the ball rolling and stimulate ideas.

Notice that the proposed ideas are really not that different from each other. In fact, in many games, the differences probably wouldn't have affected Gandalf's play. For example, increasing Blazing Strike to 4 didn't help much in at least one of my playtests because Gandalf's main role was to move the army forward as a unit. Once they got into place, the other heroes did all of the attacking. Of course, there will still be games where the small changes will tip the outcome.
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  #271  
Old April 15th, 2014, 01:19 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

I'm more inclined towards 3. Higher board control for the heroes, and if his points go down, that leaves more room for companions who can pack a punch to pick up the offensive slack.
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  #272  
Old April 15th, 2014, 06:15 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Do you really want a Gandalf with 6 Life and 3 Defence? Seriously? A Gandalf with less survivability than a knight champion? He is not that paper thin. He's seriously powerful - none of the versions I've seen seem powerful enough to me.


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  #273  
Old April 15th, 2014, 08:54 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Do you really want a Gandalf with 6 Life and 3 Defence? Seriously? A Gandalf with less survivability than a knight champion? He is not that paper thin. He's seriously powerful - none of the versions I've seen seem powerful enough to me.
6/3 life/defense does worry me, Lazy Orang; poor survivability is probably what worries me most about this design. But we're trying to reach a compromise here, which we can then (hopefully) run alongside a Fellowship not completely incapable of defending themselves.
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  #274  
Old April 15th, 2014, 10:14 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Needless to say, I prefer 1, then 3. 1 has already been thoroughly playtested and it's what we originally designed. I'd rather not see us have to run even more Gandalf playtests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Do you really want a Gandalf with 6 Life and 3 Defence? Seriously? A Gandalf with less survivability than a knight champion? He is not that paper thin. He's seriously powerful - none of the versions I've seen seem powerful enough to me.
We're not designing comic book heroes here, LazyO. 6 Life and 3 Defense is plenty tough for a ranged hero in Valhalla--far from paper-thin. Being nearly as tough as a Knight Champion does not make one a weakling in Valhalla. "So-and-so is really powerful in their homeworld so they should be extra powerful in Valhalla" is how power creep happens.

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  #275  
Old April 15th, 2014, 07:04 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

I realise it's not fr Superheroes, I just have trouble seeing Gandalf being thematic when he's easier to kill than a knight champion - IMO, he thematically needs to be harder to kill. I'd go for 7 life 4 defence, honestly - his points could account for it. That's around dragon range, which is where I think Gandalf should be. Honestly, Gandalf could probably have crushed any one of the Fellowship on his own, so why should he be easier to kill than Gilbert? However, I probably won't be using this guy anyway, simply as I have my own Gandalf the Grey that I'm happy with and is designed for C3G (which I play more often than Classic) so I'll but out now.


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  #276  
Old April 16th, 2014, 12:14 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
I'm more inclined towards 3. Higher board control for the heroes, and if his points go down, that leaves more room for companions who can pack a punch to pick up the offensive slack.
Looking back over the playtest results, there are several figures that popped up in several Gandalf Wins:

- Raelin (RotV)
- Agent Skahen
- Kaemon Awa
- Tandros Kreel
- Siege

In a few of the wins, there was a special combo:
- Syvarris and Kyntela Gwyn

I would also add:
- Captain America
- Iron Man (he hasn't been in any playtests, but in theory he should be a good match)

While lowering Gandalf's points will allow more heroes or squads in Gandalf's army, as I mentioned before it only helps if the added squads or heroes fit well with Gandalf's play style.

1) Raelin fits in well, because she boosts everyone's Defense. She won't get many order markers. (Ana can also fill in this role.)
2) Tandros, Siege, and Kaemon can act as screens and take damage for weaker figures. In that role, they won't get many order markers.
3) Skahen, Kaemon, and Captain America have multiple attacks and will get most of the order markers for attacking.

Adding more defensive figures (to keep Skahen, Kaemon, or CA alive) will help the army, as long as they don't take many order markers. Adding in a single attacking hero won't help them much--he or she just won't get many order markers. Adding in an attacking squad won't help until endgame (after board control is lost), since they won't get any order markers.

On the other hand, Gandalf is going to get some order markers anyways, just to keep the heroes moving together. Increasing his attack or special attack, even at the cost of a higher point value, then, is a direct benefit.

These are things to consider when we try to decide Gandalf's stats and cost.
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