Army Point Limits

[lemur]

I'm posting this here, because I originally posted it in the customization thread -- I don't think that was accurate.

I'm sure this is something everyone's come up against -- say the army point limit for a map is 400 points. You can put together a great army for -- say - 405 points; or, you have to settle for 350 points.

I should mention, the games I'm talking about take place in a league, where each manager has selected 900 points of units, and can ONLY make up teams with those units...

For example, my available units only have 5 different point costs:

185
100
80
70
50

So, if for example, I wanted to use Nilfheim (185) and Syvarris (100) and the Archers (70) - I'd be at 355...can't quite get in the 50 point warriors of ashra.

In fact, on a 400 point scale - using Nilfheim, the CLOSEST I can get is 385 -- not great, obviously.

Has anyone figured out a viable way to make this work? Clearly a 405-400 point differential is far fairer than a 400-350 differential.

I'd be interested in any ideas others have for mitigating this -- or, do you literally keep the limit as a hard limit?

Thanks!

Chris

[umuhiforgot]

The limit is a LIMIT. It is set so that people dont go over. Sorry, but you will have to rethink your army.

[LilNewbie]

Most game systems that allow you to build armies using a point system will generally state that the maximum point value for an army is a hard limit.

In tourneys, this is especially important but in friendly games just check with your opponent(s) to see if they mind. 5 to 10 points over is not a big deal in friendly games and most people don't mind but it would be bad form to just assume they will accept the extra points...always ask first.

Newb.

[lemur]

Well - this is in a league -- we all draft units at the beginning of the season...900 points in total. So, it's not as though we can draft from ALL the units in the game. You can only make up your army for EVERY game from those same 900 points.

I don't think 5 or 10 points is a big deal either - I'm just wondering if anyone has any first-hand experience or precedent for allowing games to be played that way?

Chris

[dnutt99]

There was a similar question asked in this thread.
It's very short, (not even a full page, but I think it'll give you a general idea of thoughts.) Personally, you get what you get, ... no more!
http://heroscapers.com/community/sho...ghlight=#93285

[Eclipse]

Honestly, this is a reason I don't care much for pushing a casual game into a competetive environment. Imbalances start to make a bigger difference and players start adding their own rules and then get upset when they don't work out.

It sounds like the League rules are an example of this. 900 total with 400 games limits the flexibity of drafting choices, meaning that you're better off going with hordes of lower cost, more flexible units. Awkward pointed units like Nilf, Johnny, etc simply hurt your options. Frankly that's not Heroscape's fault but the league's. If the league says 400 is a hard limit, than that's their rule and you have to stick by it.

Personally, I never deal with such matters. We build a map and suggest 500ish points. Someone makes an army that usually comes to about 515 or so and then the next person makes their 510-520 army. We never set hard limits because we're just trying to get around the same point value, which to me is more important that trying to stay under some arbitrary limit.

[lemur]

Eclipse...

And, that's where I'm coming from as well...

The thing is -- I run the league -- I can make changes, as I see fit. The other thing is -- I have Nilfheim too. So, while I see that making a 400-ish point army is better for all; I have to be careful to NOT make it seem as though I'm doing this JUST to get Nilfheim into the games (which isn't the case at all - it's the other way around...Nilfheim plays, and I just come up short).

Yesterday, for instance, one player couldn't get better than a 340 point army for a 400 point game. His competitor had 400 points. Not surprisingly, the lower player got pounded.

I wasn't blaming "Heroscape" for this -- more like this -- if I move the limit to (say) 5 or 10 points leeway (so, it could be 400, 405 or 410) - how "imbalanced" does that make the game? How much do those people who drafted those hordes suffer for this rulechange?

Those are the questions I have...I can't really make a decision until I know all the facts

Thanks!

Chris

[dnutt99]

INHO :: I think 5-10 points can make a significant difference in gameplay.

I use Arrow Gruts and my only beast is Krug with 20 points left : Another 5 points can get me a Swog Rider (Another Beast for bonding AND att/def enhancements for my Arrow Gruts)
I have vipers and only have 35 points left with no Dumutefs, Swog, or Guilty to draft, (unlikely but I have seen it happen; especially if you don't own a lot of multiples) : I draft some more Vernocs (which isn't really intimidating unless they frenzy like crazy) But it's still 3 more units to contend with. Or even worse, I draft the Rats
I have 20 points left : 5 more will get me a Dumutef Guard who can be a monster on road spaces, especially if I already drafted one.
And I think you may have had one of the most devastating examples of all : With just 5 more points I can get NILFHEIM That's insane!

I think it would be just better to set the point limit at 410 or 415 to compensate for those screwy-point figs like Nilfheim, Johnny, James, Sir Gilbert, and others like them.

[lemur]

dnutt...

Isnt' that the same thing tho? If you set a limit of 400, and allow people to go over by 10; or set the limit of 410 -- is there really a difference in those two?

Or, is the 'principle' of it that makes the difference to you?

Chris

[Aldin]

Chris,

Just one possibility for your situation... what if you costed out commons on a per figure basis? So if I have Omnicron Snipers at 3 figs per 100 points I can add a fourth fig for 34 points. Not an idea I like much for a typical environment, but in a league where you have to construct 400 point armies from 900 points for a while, it might ease things up toward being more competitive.

~Aldin

[Doc_Savage]

I like Aldin's idea.

Negotiating the build totals with the league is probably your best bet...

[dnutt99]

Originally Posted by lemur

dnutt...

Isnt' that the same thing tho? If you set a limit of 400, and allow people to go over by 10; or set the limit of 410 -- is there really a difference in those two?

Or, is the 'principle' of it that makes the difference to you?

Chris

What I'm saying essentially is, it seems to be that this was primarily started by off-point figure values. If you just wanted to compensate 5 or 10 points to accomodate these figs. then that's cool. Basically whatever you do, (especially being the league manager), you should make a solid concrete point value that cannot be argued. This will bring far less complication and all players are bound to that ruling.

I disagree with Aldin's suggestion. Though it makes sense and can create some wild and crazy army combos, breaking each figure down to a point value, (for a squad), is far too time consuming and brings an entirely new dimension of gameplay. For instance:
If you were to add one more Omnicron to the squad,.... THAT'S NOT AN OMNICRON SQUAD, ......... 4 ATTACKS OF 2, (assuming height advantage), AND THEIR SKULLS ARE DOUBLED!

That's,......... I can't even find words,...............