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  #25  
Old May 16th, 2019, 03:51 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
With the Phantom Walk + Stealth Dodge design, it was meant to be easy to use while still getting the same theme across. So here are a couple of questions and my arguments why Blink itself is uneeded.

Why Blink over Phantom Walk?

Blink lets you clip over water and onto potentially higher heights. It achieves phasing in and out of physical-ness.

Phantom Walk does not let you clip over water, but is an existing power. It also achieves the theme of phasing in and out of physical-ness.

Can you attach Phase Grab or Telefrag to Blink that is better than attaching it to Phantom Walk?

The only value I see of Blink over Phantom Walk is that with Phantom Walk youíll have to add ďchoose a figure a Prismite passed through this turnĒ before whatever power text you want. With fancy wordsmithing, we can even do it for the original idea of Telefrag (if Telefrag is an SA). This is made up for the fact that Phantom Walk is only one sentence.

Blink is more thematic as a name, right?

Change the name of Phantom Walk to Blink. Boom.
I don't think that Phantom Walk and Blink convey the same themes. Phantom Walk normally is for stealthy figures that can sneak past anyone, and even a rename to Blink doesn't fully change this. Why, for example, does a teleporting alien need to count spaces around castle walls to appear on the other side? Why can they not blink over water or lava? Phantom Walk inherently conveys the theme of walking somewhere, which is at odds with the theme of teleporting away.

Changing the name to Blink doesn't change this, and I'm not so sure that Blink makes sense as a name for the power in any case since they're no longer specifically walking a set distance, blinking to a different position, and then walking again. In my eyes, any kind of Phantom Walk power makes more sense for a much more physical power/theme, such as ninjas or the phantoms that these guys originally were.

I'd also argue that Phantom Walk + Phase Grab is a more complicated power set than Blink + Phase Grab, since placing a figure at a given time is easier to understand than having to walk through a figure and drag them away. It's easier for us to immediately understand since Phantom Walk is a familiar power, but hopefully there will be players who see everything as a new power, even the reused ones.

The aliens admittedly might be a little easier to play well if they're allowed to Phase Grab a figure at any point during their movement, but there's nothing wrong with including a few "advanced" units that reward skilled players as well. I personally don't think that the necessary thematic sacrifices are worth it.
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  #26  
Old May 16th, 2019, 03:59 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I think I’m in agreement with AK here. He put words to some thoughts I had.
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  #27  
Old May 16th, 2019, 06:49 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Iíll accept Blink+Grab but Iím definately gonna need to see how it fares in practice. Itís a powerset that takes a lot of risks competitively, which is fine. Just hopefully not ĎAí levels of fine. Some things you can charge for, others are little bit harder to. Blinking Raelin will be a concern, but blinking Rats away might make up for it. Then again, blinking Rats and other screens around could also prove to be annoying.

But, Phase Grab wasnít really my favorite option here anyway.

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  #28  
Old May 16th, 2019, 07:23 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I honestly think that we should be moving away from phase grab at all. It doesn’t feel like it fits to me. Not theme wise, and not in a master set.
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  #29  
Old May 16th, 2019, 07:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I honestly think that we should be moving away from phase grab at all. It doesn’t feel like it fits to me. Not theme wise, and not in a master set.
I agree that simpler is better, but we are currently at 3-2 in favor of Phase Grab. And, it might get rejected in testing anyway. Like I said above, it takes a lot of risks in the competitive format. Not all of which are super concerning, but *could* be a concern. There’s a reason Warforged and Arashara cost so much.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; May 16th, 2019 at 07:39 PM. Reason: And it’s only partially because of Resolve or Bonding
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  #30  
Old May 16th, 2019, 07:42 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Phase Grab is not be all, end all for me. There have been some valid points against it, most notably the point that it may end up superfluous on a card that would rather just attack normally, or too much on a card that can both use it on attack. That said, there are two main points I want to emphasize.

1. If we're want to emphasize a dimensional/teleportation theme, Phantom Walk isn't going to get us there. Astroking's explanation for why is, to my mind, more or less sufficient here, and I agree with it.

2. Abandoning the Phase Grab direction should not default us to the Telefrag direction. For one, Telefrag as written is too strong in that it provides 3 ranged attacks of 4 which can be used against the same or different targets. Additionally, the theme of Telefrag is too niche for my tastes, as a reference to old-school twitch shooters and a very specific usage of teleportation. I could see a design where that is appropriate, but I don't believe that's here for this Master Set.

Phase Grab could still be workable if we restrict it to opponent's figures and testing proves it to be tactically interesting. But it doesn't, or if we don't want to go that direction, we don't have to come to an ultimatum here. We're in no hurry, and we can always continue to brainstorm additional powers to convey our intended theme that have yet to come up. In my mind, that's the decision we're at here, not a make-or-break choice between two different directions.
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  #31  
Old May 17th, 2019, 11:23 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
1. If we're want to emphasize a dimensional/teleportation theme, Phantom Walk isn't going to get us there. Astroking's explanation for why is, to my mind, more or less sufficient here, and I agree with it.
I do want to point out that it's not difficult to make work with Phase Grab, but that's fair. I love the simplicity of a unit with just Phantom Walk/Stealth Dodge, but that might not be the right theme fit here.

Quote:
2. Abandoning the Phase Grab direction should not default us to the Telefrag direction. For one, Telefrag as written is too strong in that it provides 3 ranged attacks of 4 which can be used against the same or different targets. Additionally, the theme of Telefrag is too niche for my tastes, as a reference to old-school twitch shooters and a very specific usage of teleportation. I could see a design where that is appropriate, but I don't believe that's here for this Master Set.
I would absolutely be against Telefrag as laid out (5R/4A). It's just way too strong. At the very least the Attack would have to drop to 3 (otherwise even with 4A normally you'd just Telefrag adjacent figures to get around defensive powers and move if you fail).

Quote:
Phase Grab could still be workable if we restrict it to opponent's figures and testing proves it to be tactically interesting. But it doesn't, or if we don't want to go that direction, we don't have to come to an ultimatum here. We're in no hurry, and we can always continue to brainstorm additional powers to convey our intended theme that have yet to come up. In my mind, that's the decision we're at here, not a make-or-break choice between two different directions.
I think part of the problem is that while Blink, Phase Grab, and Stealth Dodge are all thematically appropriate, they don't necessarily make the best package together.

How about this?

4 Move
1 Range
4 Attack
3 Defense

BLINK
Before moving, you may place a SPOOKY ALIEN on an empty space within 2 clear sight spaces. It will not take leaving engagement attacks while Blinking.

PHASED OUT
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zones while there are no revealed OMs on this card.

Both of these really get the theme across of them moving between dimensions. And both make them a solid anti-Range unit: can't be targeted and can disengage to get behind screens. 4 Move helps balance out Blink-before-moving. And both powers are short and straightforward.

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  #32  
Old May 17th, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I like @NecroBlade 's new BLINK a lot as you can essentially have a disengage move of 6 in most circumstances, but it keeps the theme. However I not a fan of the name BLINK, maybe FLASH or PHASE IN, I dunno

PHASED OUT seems good as well as it essentially Stealth Dodge for at least part of the round; but I'm not tied to it. Name at least good and IMHO is better than BLINK is for that power.
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  #33  
Old May 17th, 2019, 06:04 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Iíll accept Blink+Grab but Iím definately gonna need to see how it fares in practice. Itís a powerset that takes a lot of risks competitively, which is fine. Just hopefully not ĎAí levels of fine. Some things you can charge for, others are little bit harder to. Blinking Raelin will be a concern, but blinking Rats away might make up for it. Then again, blinking Rats and other screens around could also prove to be annoying.

But, Phase Grab wasnít really my favorite option here anyway.
If you read the most recent drafts, you'd see that Phase Grab already only worked with opponents' figures.

Power concerns are a good point, but I don't think that we need to absolutely avoid making an "A" unit at all costs. So long as we don't add a new Raelin or Major Q9 into the mix, I'm fine with some units being in a competitive discussion every now and then, and I think that the proposed Phase Grab would be too difficult to consistently find value in for a Unique Squad to make them the next Cathar Spearmen unless we price these guys way too low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I think part of the problem is that while Blink, Phase Grab, and Stealth Dodge are all thematically appropriate, they don't necessarily make the best package together.

How about this?

4 Move
1 Range
4 Attack
3 Defense

BLINK
Before moving, you may place a SPOOKY ALIEN on an empty space within 2 clear sight spaces. It will not take leaving engagement attacks while Blinking.

PHASED OUT
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zones while there are no revealed OMs on this card.

Both of these really get the theme across of them moving between dimensions. And both make them a solid anti-Range unit: can't be targeted and can disengage to get behind screens. 4 Move helps balance out Blink-before-moving. And both powers are short and straightforward.
I may be mistaken, but I thought that the reason we were discussing Stealth Dodge over Phased Out was because they were similar enough mechanically and Stealth Dodge was simpler to get the hang of? I can get behind Phased Out as well (the theme feels a little stronger to me), although conditionally removing hit zones is generally a more complex mechanic to implement in my eyes. I'd feel more iffy about putting Phased Out in a design with three powers.

If we wanted to remove Phase Grab from the design, I would suggest upping Blink to 3 spaces and lowering the base move to 3. As one of the defining aspects of the design, I feel like it should be a little more impactful, although it still essentially equates to a free disengage before moving here.
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  #34  
Old May 17th, 2019, 06:07 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Things get missed all the time Astro. Good catch

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Old May 17th, 2019, 07:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Is Blink + Stealth Dodge an option that still hits the theme well? I mean, if a robot can use Stealth Dodge, I don’t see why Spooky Aliens can’t. A rename still works.

Plus, if the units are “phased out” of this dimension, how can they be slashed at? At least in melee we can guess that they are too busy fighting to really think about timing their phasing.

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  #36  
Old May 17th, 2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I much much prefer this version of Blink. I’m torn on SD/Phased. I’m leaning towards Phased just for the novelty, but like flame mentioned, maybe a renamed Stealth Dodge?
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