The Book of Demona

[quozl]

I like the once per game version.

[Yodaking]

Kind of like the mass petrify idea if the spell isn't tied to some specific comic/cartoon event anyway. You could even call it Medusa's Gaze.

[Ronin]

Yeah, I like that version. Differentiates it more from the Crimson Bands.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Since the reason she hates Goliath's clan is due to their stance on cooperation with Humans (and their friendship with Elisa specifically), getting a bonus against armies with a Human in them is far more thematic.

I just wanted to throw my support in here. I concur with LOs assessment on the thematic here. Demonas main wish is that the clan would be one and she blames humans as opposed to her own actions on why the is not the case. Humans first destroyed her family and now a human is keeping them apart.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by johnny139

I'll buck the trend and say that Immortal Hatred makes sense to me as is. At the start of the round, you can do one of two things. If she's alive, you get an initiative roll. If she's dead, you can bring her back. I'm fine with breaking it up, and would even push for that because I always prefer broken up simple powers where possible... but it's not an egregious example of stacking for me.

I like once per game on the resurrection. Petrify + Arcane Plot is going to be crazy good, but I'm fine with going to testing for that. But if we wanted to tweak it a bit... maybe something more like this?

That's more of a "Mass Petrify" spell, but it makes it less of a one-hit-kill when you can't be sure if the person you're targeting is going to be turned to stone.

Thanks for the support on Immortal Hatred - that's pretty much what I was thinking. I really do want to keep that.
The more I think about it, yeah, a single respawn might be better here - Demona isn't really a character you ought to be playing whack-a-mole with like Jason.
Oh, and I love, love, love that Mass Petrify idea! It's actually tonnes more thematic to what actually happens in the cartoons, and looks like a lot of fun - I just didn't know if I could make this balanced! Thank you!

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Kind of like the mass petrify idea if the spell isn't tied to some specific comic/cartoon event anyway. You could even call it Medusa's Gaze.

There are actually two times a 'Petrify' spell is cast in the cartoon, and both times are more of a mass petrify:

Spoiler Alert!

The first is in the pilot, and is the basis for the entire plot going forwards - The Magus, consumed by rage, cast it on surviving Gargoyles Hudson, Lexington, Brooklyn, Broadway and Bronx (not named that then) to put them into their stone sleep permanently. Later, after repenting this act but being unable to reverse it, he did cast the spell on Goliath and Goliath alone, at Goliath's request. The spell stated that they would sleep 'until the castle rises above the clouds', so it was broken when Xanatos put the castle on his skyscraper in the 90s.
The second time was during the City of Stone arc, and was cast by Demona. She broadcast it using modern technology, hijacking every television screen in the city - anyone who both saw and heard the spell was turned to stone at night, the inverse of Gargoyle biology. (A blind man was actually shown to be immune, so I'm wondering if we want to be Gargoyles specific enough to add a Blind Warrior restriction?)

[Yodaking]

Not looking directly at Medusa is how she is defeated, so being blind sees like a logical counter for a magical spell that turns people to stone.

I've seen some of the show and am familiar with the castle in the sky spell breaking portion of the lore.

[Ronin]

Yeah, I could get behind a Blind Warrior call-out, especially with a rebrand to Petrifying Gaze or something. "Don't look at Medusa" is trope-tacular enough that it doesn't feel like a hyper-specific Gargoyles thing.

A few other stray thoughts, digging into the SP a bit more.

Definitely think we should drop the SA language from Arcane Plot, just because from what I'm gathering, that's not really the right kind of spell for her to be using (and she likely won't be pushed toward those with only one spell a game anyhow).

EDIT: Oh, also, the timing on the OM movement may need clarified/changed.... if she casts a spell like Petrify with lingering effects, is "after casting" after the initial use, or after the effects go away? I think this came up before in connection with the Magical Aptitude stuff and I think we erred toward the latter.

Agreed with johnny's take on Immortal Hatred. Okay as one thing, but I'd prefer to see it broken up, and I like the once-a-game resurrection. The timing also needs clarified so that it's clear whether or not she can boost initiative on a round she comes back. (And whether or not she comes back before OMs are placed)

I hesitate to add complexity, but I wonder if something like this wouldn't sell the impetuousness a bit more (I know I mentioned this briefly in the LCW, but I don't think I had a specific suggestion and we kinda moved on):

If an opponent controls at least one Human, you may add 2 to your initiative roll for each Order Marker on this card. If you do and you win initiative, you must immediately move one of your unrevealed Order Markers to this card.;

Is the Flying symbol intentional here? Guessing not, but it'd be awesome if it was and she had some thematic reason to have better flying than the other Gargoyles. Then you could just ditch C&G and have a really tight card.

On the class.... I'm okay with Outcast if that's our best fit, but could Exile work? Mainly just asking because that's on Deathbiird and I'd like it to be more of a thing.

(EDIT: Kind of a lot of thoughts, I know, but this is a meaty design!)

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Yeah, I could get behind a Blind Warrior call-out, especially with a rebrand to Petrifying Gaze or something. "Don't look at Medusa" is trope-tacular enough that it doesn't feel like a hyper-specific Gargoyles thing.

It's not a gaze in Gargoyles (it's just a spell, but Hudson clarifies that you have to see and hear magic for it to affect you in the Gargoyles universe, so a blind man's immune), so that rename wouldn't work, but yeah, that's another reason I can definitely see that callout.

A few other stray thoughts, digging into the SP a bit more.

Definitely think we should drop the SA language from Arcane Plot, just because from what I'm gathering, that's not really the right kind of spell for her to be using (and she likely won't be pushed toward those with only one spell a game anyhow).

That could be a fair way to cut down the wording, yeah.

EDIT: Oh, also, the timing on the OM movement may need clarified/changed.... if she casts a spell like Petrify with lingering effects, is "after casting" after the initial use, or after the effects go away? I think this came up before in connection with the Magical Aptitude stuff and I think we erred toward the latter.

Erm... yeah, may need discussion/clarification.

Agreed with johnny's take on Immortal Hatred. Okay as one thing, but I'd prefer to see it broken up, and I like the once-a-game resurrection. The timing also needs clarified so that it's clear whether or not she can boost initiative on a round she comes back. (And whether or not she comes back before OMs are placed)

I wouldn't mind breaking it up if we can find cool names for both powers and it looks good.

I hesitate to add complexity, but I wonder if something like this wouldn't sell the impetuousness a bit more (I know I mentioned this briefly in the LCW, but I don't think I had a specific suggestion and we kinda moved on):

Yeah, I hesitate to add complexity too, and she's not super impetuous all the time, she just can be occassionally, and she is generally bright enough to wait for right moment (she is viciously intelligent and devious, actually). I don't think it's really necessary - it already encourages dumping OMs on her, and it could border on feeling thematically off sometimes, plus it's more text.

Is the Flying symbol intentional here? Guessing not, but it'd be awesome if it was and she had some thematic reason to have better flying than the other Gargoyles. Then you could just ditch C&G and have a really tight card.

Crap, yeah... didn't notice that, not sure how it got on there. Her flying is pretty much the same as any other Gargoyles, though she does tend towards being a bit more agile than, say, Goliath, hence the move of six.
The only 'Gargoyle' who should get full-on flying is Coldstone, and that's only because they're (it's... complicated) a cyborg with a built-in jetpack/

On the class.... I'm okay with Outcast if that's our best fit, but could Exile work? Mainly just asking because that's on Deathbiird and I'd like it to be more of a thing.

Exile could work, since she's an Exile/Outcast from her Clan, but she really does fit with the 'member of an oppressed group filled with rage against their oppressors (generally Humans) and attempting to overthrow them' vibe of the Brotherhood - I could definitely see her working with Magneto or Mystique to achieve a common goal of defeating those wretched Humans. Revolutionary could also fit, given it's on Nemesis and the first Magneto (even though she's a one woman revolution at this stage), but I do like the hint of synergy there - I imagine that if Gargoyles and X-Men ever had a crossover (which they haven't, as far as I know), that's the kind of story they'd be most likely to tell, and, given her desire to hog OMs and Outcast synergy being comparatively fairly weak, I doubt it's likely to drive her cost or define her builds too much, just be a nice option.

[Tornado]

I would consider flying and Move 5 to save space here. Feels like a minor theme break if she is the best glider and her magical nature lends to such abilities.

[Lazy Orang]

I Propose Moving Demona to Initial Playtesting

[Tornado]

Yea

[Ronin]

SP isn't up to date, so I'm not sure what I'm voting on.

Could we get the current state of Demona in there, LO?