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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #373  
Old July 10th, 2018, 05:06 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

Hey judges,

Is it possible to get some initial thoughts on these two maps I plan to submit? I feel fairly confident with them, but if you see any red flags or have any other suggestions, please let me know. I'd love the chance to improve them. (Others are welcome to offer thoughts too, if they'd like.)

Bridge May Be Icy


Requirements: 1 SotM, 1 TT, 1 RttFF
Glyphs: Wannok, Valda
Notes: Normal Snow, Normal Ice

Jungle Fever


Requirements: 1 SotM, 1 VW, 1 TJ
Glyphs: Dagmar, Valda
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  #374  
Old July 10th, 2018, 05:33 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

I'll echo rednax's request for some feedback. The theme for this contest just screamed "treasure glyph under an overhang" to me, so I designed a map around that concept.




Pure Gold build instructions (v1.0). It uses 2 BftU and 1 RttFF, with Wannok and 3 Treasure Glyphs.

(The three tiles at the top of the topdown are the tiles under the overhang. There is a treasure glyph on each of the stone spaces, and on the water space under the overhang.)

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  #375  
Old July 10th, 2018, 07:25 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

I am not a pro at building (I have watched and participated in these contests) so take my point of view as opinion and theory only. All three of these maps would hold a proud place on my table and I would enjoy playing on them as is.
@rednax
Bridge may be icy: My first concern is the Glyph under the bridge. It looks like it can be reached in the first turn by a move 6 with some type of movement ability (flying etc)

I would also be concerned with who can stand under the bridge and hold it due to size limitations, so armies with large figures may not have an option to use the glyph. In the same vein, if a smaller figure holds it the height limits large melee figures positioning to assault it.

I also believe the opportunity for a first turn start zone attack is there but Im not sure with the LOS.

The map is beautiful and I love the use of the LOS blockers. The bridge would be powerful high ground but I think the road would make it hard to hold even if taken early.

Overall like most of your maps, this one would definitely find a spot on my table.

Jungle Fever: Again beautiful map. I like the way the lava field limits the high ground, especially around the Glyphs.

The only thing I can see for concern for me would be the higher sand spaces next to the bushes close to the start point, which would encourage a range pod to set up with little penalty because the high ground that could assault it is lava field discouraging melee.

EDIT: I just noticed the approach for the Glyph on the "bottom" of the map is a little constricted and easy to hold against melee due to the lava.

@superfrog A very good looking map. The shadow is a nice touch although I havent played with it competitively enough to comment on placement.

I think the same concern with Glyphs would trouble your map (overhang) Also the two in the center cant be picked up by double spaced figures.

I would also like to see the Triple mountains on there somewhere because I enjoy the look of them but that is just personal preference. Without playing on it I wouldnt know where to begin placing them for balance.

Great work to both of you!

Last edited by vvildeyedjoker; July 10th, 2018 at 07:28 PM. Reason: New observation.
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  #376  
Old July 10th, 2018, 07:56 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvildeyedjoker View Post
I am not a pro at building (I have watched and participated in these contests) so take my point of view as opinion and theory only. All three of these maps would hold a proud place on my table and I would enjoy playing on them as is.
@rednax
Bridge may be icy: My first concern is the Glyph under the bridge. It looks like it can be reached in the first turn by a move 6 with some type of movement ability (flying etc)

I would also be concerned with who can stand under the bridge and hold it due to size limitations, so armies with large figures may not have an option to use the glyph. In the same vein, if a smaller figure holds it the height limits large melee figures positioning to assault it.

I also believe the opportunity for a first turn start zone attack is there but Im not sure with the LOS.

The map is beautiful and I love the use of the LOS blockers. The bridge would be powerful high ground but I think the road would make it hard to hold even if taken early.

Overall like most of your maps, this one would definitely find a spot on my table.

Jungle Fever: Again beautiful map. I like the way the lava field limits the high ground, especially around the Glyphs.

The only thing I can see for concern for me would be the higher sand spaces next to the bushes close to the start point, which would encourage a range pod to set up with little penalty because the high ground that could assault it is lava field discouraging melee.

EDIT: I just noticed the approach for the Glyph on the "bottom" of the map is a little constricted and easy to hold against melee due to the lava.
Thank you very much for your comments!

For Bridge May Be Icy, I thought a while about the placement of the glyph under the bridge. Ultimately, I ended up feeling justified by it for a few reasons:
  • For most armies: Most armies that include double-space figures also feature single-space figures who can hold the glyph.
  • For armies with mostly large squad figures: Deathstalkers, Marrden Hounds, Grok Riders, and some of the Templar Cavalry, can hold the glyph. (Me-Burq-Sa can also hold it if positioned correctly.)
  • For armies with tall medium figures: This mostly applies to Kyrie whose wings don't allow them under the bridge. In this case, I'd argue this is for the best. This map is relatively small, so it kind of works out that it doesn't really allow for 6-move flying Minions, etc.
  • When it's near the end of the game and you only have large/huge heroes left: Like the Kyrie, many dragons and other flying figures don't really need the move glyph. Second, the move glyph significantly loses value near the end of the game when few figures remain (in contrast to defense and wound). Even in a situation where your opponent still has use for the move glyph but you do not, a large/huge figure has a chance to contest the glyph, as the bridge only restricts melee engagement on 2/6 sides.

Yes, this map allows for attacks on the first turn, as well as 6-move flyers to reach the glyph. This is fairly standard for almost all my maps. It's something that others feel strongly against that I'm not as opposed to. Yes figures can attack early, but most can only do so from the ice, which puts them at a disadvantage. Six-move fliers can reach the wound glyph, but that doesn't take effect till the end of the round.

Your critiques for Jungle Fever are definitely valid. I had hoped that the slightly limited access to the glyph and the high sand area wouldn't be too much of an issue, but perhaps you're right. I'm curious if others agree.
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  #377  
Old July 10th, 2018, 08:12 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

@rednax I didn’t notice that it was a move glyph and I agree with your justifications on both glyphs. Especially with the road on this map making the move glyph less important but still a minor advantage. Completely justified in my eyes. As far as the attack first turn goes, it is not a game breaker for me. As I mentioned above the LOS restricts it somewhat and starting placement may counter it all together. By posturing on that side you would be giving up the road advantage so there would be a downside to it as well.

For Jungle fever I feel continuing the swamp water up to the lava field by the glyph (less visually appealing) would solve that issue As for the sand spots adjusting the hive to restrict line of sight from those spaces would help me feel better about it. (I dislike armies that don’t have to move)

Again just personal opinion and I would gladly build this as is and play on it.
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  #378  
Old July 10th, 2018, 08:42 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvildeyedjoker View Post
@rednax I didnít notice that it was a move glyph and I agree with your justifications on both glyphs. Especially with the road on this map making the move glyph less important but still a minor advantage. Completely justified in my eyes. As far as the attack first turn goes, it is not a game breaker for me. As I mentioned above the LOS restricts it somewhat and starting placement may counter it all together. By posturing on that side you would be giving up the road advantage so there would be a downside to it as well.

For Jungle fever I feel continuing the swamp water up to the lava field by the glyph (less visually appealing) would solve that issue As for the sand spots adjusting the hive to restrict line of sight from those spaces would help me feel better about it. (I dislike armies that donít have to move)

Again just personal opinion and I would gladly build this as is and play on it.
Thanks again! I think I came up with a solution that can fix both problems with Jungle Fever in one fell swoop. I'm thinking of moving the bush horizontally over to the level 1 lava, and then moving that level 1 lava to replace the molten lava closest to the move glyph. That would increase access to the move glyph, and make the passage just a little wider.

I would post a revision, but unfortunately I'm without Virtualscape until the end of July.
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  #379  
Old July 10th, 2018, 09:15 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

I'll come back to give some comments later tonight. HW first, then play...right?
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  #380  
Old July 11th, 2018, 01:08 AM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

@rednax
The ice map reminds me a lot of Wendigo, which received scathing reviews when it was selected and used at GenCon a couple years back. Main reason was the difficulty of developing an army through all of that continuous height. Even with the movement glyph, the army that takes that height first is able to limit a lot of what the opponent can do. Likley the opponent will have to fight a constant uphill battle that makes it very unfun. Bridges always scare me. Bridges low to the ground work because usually melee can engage on the sides still, but perches this high will almost make for an autowin for competitive Dragon builds. Even though a Nilfeim might overextend from his Greenscales early...a bridge provides AT MOST just 2 attackers to reach him and even then he's getting 3 attacks per turn and can potentially reposition to allow his screen to catch up while he kites the board. I'd be really concerned about this map for competitive play, but there's no shortage of aesthetic appeal and fun design.

The Lava map is actually looking quite good. No initial concerns, though, as mentioned it looks like the sand 7-hex is surrounded by bushes and prime for campers to try and pod up. It's not a perfect position, but fairly accessible and surrounded by lava that makes it hard for melee to stay put while attacking. playtesting would only tell if that would be the case, and I don't see it as a blaring issue, but it is noted. other than that, I looks alright

Overall I must say though, I'm not grabbing the theme of the maps yet? Granted, theme is a small portion of the points you are awarded, but nonetheless important when we judge for the contest. When you were building these with the contest in mind, what were you going for in regards to "Secret Treasures"? It just seems like the maps were built fairly standard, though, sometimes the backstory helps with that.
@superfrog .
Love the look and feel of the map. Really only 2 concerns on this one. 1) the 7hex hills seemed like good positions within just 2 turns for range to set up. I appreciate the road leading up to it, though I must say the dip from lvl 3 to lvl 2 makes it harder for melee to make their way to contest the opposing position. that said, I like the high bridge that can shoot down on those podding positions to keep those types of armies honest if they try to do that. 2) I don't think the hidden treasure is working It's a nice thematic touch..but fairly impractical and makes for difficult game situations when a goblin cutter or spider can just hide down there for the game and not get touched. Treasure glyphs a many in the center is still thematic and fun.
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  #381  
Old July 11th, 2018, 09:56 AM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

@rednax

Bridge May Be Icy: Very cool looking map! Two powerful glyphs . . . have you thought about random power glyphs? I am also concerned about the bridge for the reasons outlined by Sir Heroscape. My personal preference is to make glyphs accessible by all figures, but this may not detract from the map.

Jungle Fever: Another nice looking map. One initial concern is that Zelrig can Majestic Fire on OM#1 without a being engaged by melee units with a move of six, and then get another off on OM#2. Not a deal breaker, but something to consider.


@superfrog

Pure Gold: I really like this map and would probably find it entertaining to play on. I am intrigued by the single starting spots for each army in the center of the map. Order of placing armies would be vital and whoever wins initiative in round 1 would be crucial. Some thoughts: My preference is to place glyphs so that all figures have a chance to access them. Why Wannok? Could a random power glyph be utilized instead? Figures with a size of Small 2 could hide under the bridge and not be attacked by some armies.
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  #382  
Old July 11th, 2018, 12:34 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

Thanks for the feedback, judges.

You both brought up that the glyph might be inaccessible and lead to stalling with a Spider. I also thought about that. Firstly, the spot is reachable by almost any medium figure. There's no requirement AFAICT about figures being able to fit "through" spaces, as long as they can fit on every individual space on their movement. Obviously this means that figures like Tornak would be kinda screwed here, but nearly any medium figure would fit well under the bridge. Secondly, I put Wannok on the map for that reason. In any corner case where there could be stalling, the other player can simply go get Wannok and win.

All that said, I have removed a few tiles surrounding that area, and now there are level 2 spaces adjacent to the overhang. This makes the glyph area more accessible, and figures of height 5 or more can still attack at the middle space of the bridge from the ground. You now need small 2 figures to pull off the stalling tactic, rather than small 3. But since it still is possible, I will keep Wannok.

You're right, Sir H, that the map was a bit "two hills"-y. I added a 7-hex to level 3 which makes it smoother to go across the middle. This also creates height adjacent to Wannok, which was missing in the first iteration. The 2 hexes of level 2 road have been bumped to level 4 to provide a point for either side to try to advance towards the level 4 seven hex.

You mentioned that you like the level 6 height being able to shoot at the level 4 pod spots. I would also like to point out that at 5-7 spaces away, it's also impossible for Raelin to sit on the level 4 and reach the level 6.

The two "middle" treasure glyphs are now reachable by double-spacers. I tend to not think of that as such a big deal for T-Glyphs, since they can move, but it's nice if it can happen, so thanks for pointing that out.

I had to squeeze this terrain very hard to get this out of it. The only unused pieces are the 4-hex tree, the 3-hex outcrops (although the bases are used), and 19 water tiles. I'm happy with the aesthetics, too, with only dungeon, road, shadow, and water visible outside of the start zones.



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  #383  
Old July 11th, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

@superfrog those are good changes. It definitely looks better with the adjustments.
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  #384  
Old July 11th, 2018, 05:34 PM
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Re: NEW CONTEST! - Secret Treasures of Valhalla

Thank you both for your thoughts! I definitely understand the comparison to Wendigo. I wonder if perhaps lowering the bridge down a level or two might make it less favorable to range. If I do that though, I'd probably have to remove the move glyph, as that restricts further who can move under the bridge. Perhaps also repositioning some line of sight blockers might help.

I generally prefer static glyphs to random glyphs. Oftentimes I feel like maps with random glyphs have too many variables. Bridge May Be Icy would play very differently if there was Initiative and Unique Attack compared to Wound and Move.

Sir Heroscape, I think that you and vvildeyedjoker were discussing two different locations for Jungle Fever. Unless I completely misunderstood, I thought that he was discussing the three-hex sand by the hive. Sir Heroscape, do you find the three-hex sand worrisome at all? And regarding Zelrig, I can look into some possible fixes.

For theme, I definitely have some ideas in mind. That should be made more clear once I share the backstory.

Superfrog, I had one thought on your map. My one really big concern is just how open the center of the map is. All of the line of sight blockers are pushed to the edges of the map, so the center appears to be a shooting gallery. I would highly suggest finding a way to incorporate more line of sight blockers or reposition your current ones.

PS, I was gone from this website for a while and I missed the update to @ someone's username. Can someone explain how to do this, specifically how to get the number that corresponds to a username?
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