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  #229  
Old February 15th, 2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetcurse
This discussion is silly IMO... yes, silly. Everyone is familiar with Akums Razor, right? "All things being equal the simplest explanation tends to be correct." The Marro ARE common is you follow this logic.
Well, actually, it's OCCUM'S Razor.

And yea, I'll go with the simplest explanation.

Hasbro targets this game at 8-11 year-old boys.
Hasbro thinks Master Sets are a one-time purchase.
The previous Master Set had ONLY uniques.

Therefore, the simplest explanation is: There will be no commons in this set.

:P :P :P :P
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  #230  
Old February 15th, 2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetcurse
This discussion is silly IMO... yes, silly. Everyone is familiar with Akums Razor, right? "All things being equal the simplest explanation tends to be correct." The Marro ARE common is you follow this logic.
Well, actually, it's OCCUM'S Razor.

And yea, I'll go with the simplest explanation.

Hasbro targets this game at 8-11 year-old boys.
Hasbro thinks Master Sets are a one-time purchase.
The previous Master Set had ONLY uniques.

Therefore, the simplest explanation is: There will be no commons in this set.

:P :P :P :P
That's assuming Hasbro hasn't figured out their market may not be who they originally targetted. There's been plenty of signs that point towards the movement towards the older fanbase. Attempts to ship more terrain and less large heroes, deals to get Heroscape in specialty gaming stores, and things like the flagbearers. It's very possible that they've switched gears, and moved towards a new model.

Personally, I wouldn't hold the beliefs held during the design of a 3 year old product up against the years of experience learned in expanding it.
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  #231  
Old February 15th, 2007, 03:46 PM
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Levi Levi is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimpy
After realizing that the Dragon on the front cover is actually a pet of an Elf I felt a little disheartened. But, after a while I started thinking of the possibilities. What kind of special abilities can this pet offer the Elf?

A ranged dive bomb attack? An extended LOS? What do you guys think this little "hawk" can add to the figure?
Let's see...what tricks can you teach a lil dragon?
- Attack: Ranged special attack ignoring LOS
- Guard: Automatic shield on defense Rolls
- Distract: Target rolls no defense dice
- Fetch: Bring one Small or Medium figure from anywhere on the map adjacent to Sonlen
- Flying: Sonlen is carried aloft by his pet Dragon
- Breath Fire: A smaller version of Mimring's special attack
- Play Dead: Instead of attacking, chosen unit may not attack Sonlen this Turn

That's all I've got right now.


[EDIT: Looks like some of these were already taken, sorry for the repeats]
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  #232  
Old February 15th, 2007, 03:52 PM
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Sweetcurse Sweetcurse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finrod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetcurse
This discussion is silly IMO... yes, silly. Everyone is familiar with Akums Razor, right? "All things being equal the simplest explanation tends to be correct." The Marro ARE common is you follow this logic.
Well, actually, it's OCCUM'S Razor.

And yea, I'll go with the simplest explanation.

Hasbro targets this game at 8-11 year-old boys. I'm sure they're smarter now.
Hasbro thinks Master Sets are a one-time purchase. That would make them foolish and blind. Even if this is true, packaging two common squads is a good deal and does not require a second purchase.
The previous Master Set had ONLY uniques. This is the SECOND MS, things change.
Therefore, the simplest explanation is: There will be no commons in this set. Weak.

:P :P :P :P
Someone likes to walk blind-folded. As Eclipse pointed out, there is compelling evidence that Hasbro better understands their audience now. Thanks for the correction, I was sure the spelling was wrong but didn't have time to look for it, I was posting during my lunch break,

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  #233  
Old February 15th, 2007, 03:52 PM
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Sweetcurse Sweetcurse is offline
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I really feel you are not being objective with the evidence, but hey, if you want to believe that, it's ok, it just seems silly to me.

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  #234  
Old February 15th, 2007, 06:37 PM
ArchonShiva ArchonShiva is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finrod
Well, actually, it's OCCUM'S Razor.

And yea, I'll go with the simplest explanation.

Hasbro targets this game at 8-11 year-old boys.
Hasbro thinks Master Sets are a one-time purchase.
The previous Master Set had ONLY uniques.

Therefore, the simplest explanation is: There will be no commons in this set.
Funny thing is, it's neither. Either Ocaam's or Ockham's, depending if you want the modern spelling of his name or not.

That said, I agree with Finrod: while I reserve some room for the unlikely possibility that there would be commons in that MS, the wrongness of Sweetcurse's misuse of the razor approaches that of physics teachers with Schrödinger's cat :

Sweetcurse, you need more unproven assumptions to make your case than we need to counter it. That's precisely what the razor is all about not doing.

Applying the razor correctly: Hasbro doesn't mix uniques and commons -- therefore, this will be all uniques. Single unproven assumption, and it has overwhelming empirical evidence supporting it.

Neither of your assumptions is yet proven, and there's an underlying one that you didn't mention : that the set is supposed to actually contain the entirety of said swarm by itself. I did not notice Raelin actually rising in the first MS.

Also, you're assuming that the pictures are representative of the final MS composition, which is another unproven assumption, though I would tend to believe it likely.

It remains possible that they may be commons, but please don't drag poor William (of Ockham) into it under false pretense.

By respect for your fellow posters, please refrain from gratuitous use of the terms "******", "****", "****", "*****", "***", "****", "***", "******", "******" and "GenCon exclusive".
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  #235  
Old February 15th, 2007, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nwojedi
Well I have a bet with some on here, that there will be all uniques in this set. It would be assening, for them to put commons in this set. As for those duplicates you see on the box. I have a feeling we will see our first Unique squad of 6. Think about it.

IF hasbro was going to do a squad of 6. Would you do it in a wave pack? no, cuz the consumer would feel ripped off, getting only 1 army for 9.99. so now is the time to do it. Put it in a booster/starter set. Make it unique. I think this is the new thing we are going to see.
I might get in on this bet. What are we betting?

I say that the three types of Marro squads shown in the picture are not unique. Do I need to go out on a limb and say they are common or can I just declare them "not unique?"
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  #236  
Old February 15th, 2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse
He's a well designed unit as is, I see no reason to issue new stats for him, though there's no reason they couldn't either.
Why go to the trouble of making a new sculpt and printing a new card if they aren't going to change something?
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  #237  
Old February 15th, 2007, 07:45 PM
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I think the argument of commons versus uniques is a tricky one. While I personally think this set contains common squads or something new that is neither common nor unique, I can see tough points to ignore on both sides:

1. Hasbro has never mixed uniques and commons. Why start now? Any set with uniques must contain only uniques.

This point supports the "all unique" side.


2. Hasbro has never released a squad with two of the same sculpt. Why start now? Two of the same sculpt fighitng together means common.

This point supports the "common and unique" side.



Being in the "common" camp, I think the Zombie pack from wave six can be held up as an example of how to market commons without selling multiples of the same pack. A kid opening a Swarm of the Marro box will have an immediate Marro army, complete with common swarms, without ever buying anything else....mom and dad don't get whined at to buy multiples and the kid's got a great army. If we completeists must have more than two squads, we buy more and get terrain AND figures we can use. Everybody wins.
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  #238  
Old February 15th, 2007, 09:36 PM
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Billtog Billtog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb231
Being in the "common" camp, I think the Zombie pack from wave six can be held up as an example of how to market commons without selling multiples of the same pack. A kid opening a Swarm of the Marro box will have an immediate Marro army, complete with common swarms, without ever buying anything else....mom and dad don't get whined at to buy multiples and the kid's got a great army. If we completeists must have more than two squads, we buy more and get terrain AND figures we can use. Everybody wins.
I agree, but we also need to consider the fact that this box is just a prototype. Let's examine the facts: we're arguing about a picture of a picture which is not even the final version.
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  #239  
Old February 15th, 2007, 09:57 PM
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DING! DING! DING! DING!

Billtog hit the issue right on the head.

This is a protoype. nuff said.

"Clay lies still, but blood's a rover; / Breath's a ware that will not keep.
Up, lad: when the journey's over / There'll be time enough to sleep!"
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  #240  
Old February 16th, 2007, 02:04 AM
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Eclipse Eclipse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcb231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipse
He's a well designed unit as is, I see no reason to issue new stats for him, though there's no reason they couldn't either.
Why go to the trouble of making a new sculpt and printing a new card if they aren't going to change something?
Two reasons. One, they want him to be included in the new Masterset. For many (hopefully) this will be their introduction to Heroscape. I'm sure Hasbro wants to be sure those people are able to get their cover figure. Drake is in nearly every bit of promotional material for the game, it'd be like getting a Transformers set that didn't contain Optimus Prime.

While they could certainly just drop the old figure in the set, it would be VERY out of place. Look how much better the Wave 6 figures are with the new sculpt molds. I'm sure every figure in SotM will use the same molds and be just as detailed as Wave 6. Imagine getting a box of awesome figures and two slightly mushy looking guys.

The other reason is that it simply gives them an opportunity to redesign Drake for future promotional materials. Simply put, Drake is THE main character of the series. He's in virtually every comic and cartoon and his story is kind of the setup for the whole thing. What I'm sure they've realized is, his old design of the sword with the big grappling gun is completely useless in battle. I can't imagine drawing an action scene where he carries that thing around, let alone uses it along with his sword.

Clearly, the artists agree with me there. The first comic he tries to use his grappling gun in battle and it should have got him killed if they weren't trying to capture him. He loses it right away so he doesn't have to lug it around when drawing him fighting with the sword. In the second comic you'll notice its redesigned TWICE. Once on the cover in a much smaller form that basically looks like his real one, then again inside the comic as a sidearm pistol. The third comic actually returns it to the slightly larger size of the second comic's cover and oddly appears on his back throughout, despite clearly not being there in the second (which is a continuation).

In the animations its even worse. They don't even attempt to animate his grappling hook in the 2D stuff, it's just... not there. The one time he's actually supposed to use it in the Will of KeeMoShi, there just happens to be a rope hanging off the wall for him to catch. He never actually uses his grappling hook. Clearly, the big gun just doesn't work artistically or realistically. Switching between a sword and that huge thing in combat is at the very best, totally impractical.

That's why, in the 3D animation, we see the initial redesign. The hook has been completely rethought as an arm brace. This lets him use it without putting his sword away (or vice versa) and greatly reduces the bulk of his outfit. The can animate him like he doesn't even have it, but still use it dynamically without a second thought. By SotM we see it in a more final design as a full extension of his costume. Now they can use him in comics and cartoons as the series's mainstay without leaving out one of his most important features. In fact, that's why I strongly believe they won't change him. A lot of work was done to put EVERY feature of the old figure into a new, sleeker design. Seems like they're really trying to make sure he stays the same figure as before.
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