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  #13  
Old January 4th, 2007, 11:28 AM
ArchonShiva ArchonShiva is offline
 
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Problem Child: She does feel to powerful for 70 points.

Flavor on the first power is great, however, but the mechanics are a bit broken.

Second power I really don't see it, being so scary that Mimring's fireline skips her, and her stats are too high. I'm not objecting to an eventual re-nom, 'cause I really like the idea behind the card, but in the current version, I just don't see it getting in.

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  #14  
Old January 4th, 2007, 12:06 PM
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I love the concept but I agree that she is pretty powerful for only 70 points. Granted both her powerful abilties are d20 based, but when they go off they could be pretty devastating.

I don't see how the second ability fits thematically, why would all the skulls be ignored, if she was so frightening maybe they just don't attack her at all? Something like that but being so scary that skulls don't count doesn't make much sense to me.

With all the Theoryscape out of the way, HEH do you have any insight into why you priced her at 70? Have you played her? If so does she seem to fit in at 70 points?


I am going to have to with Archon and say no for now, but with some reworking this could get a from me.
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  #15  
Old January 4th, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc_Savage
I would like to nominate the Aratak's Zombie card for the "Honoring our Roots" part of the Halls because (as far as I know) it was the first Zombie card, he made up the headshot targeting area, and it inspired many of us to create our own cards.
Amen! I loved the purchasing aspect of Aratak's Zombie Horde. Gosh, it seemed like ages ago when he first showed us the Horde. Early 2005, I think. I was hooked on customs thanks to ZH, Talos, and other Aratak/KidAratak creations.







Oh Boy, Kark, you had to bring her up for nomination huh?


70 points was based on life, small size (movement while climbing), and the fickleness of D20 rolls.
I agree Frightening Aura is potent and should affect the chance to attack, not skulls rolled. I think it's thematic and perfect for a little innocent, blood-splattered girl weilding a big knife. Ever see Night of the Living Dead? The little girl in the basement has her mother paralyzed with fear. Granted it's the woman's own daughter and perhaps hardened warriors of Valhalla have better courage than to be spooked. But Aura was another of Lily's mind-game abilities and so I thought it worked.
I have playtested Lily and her sisters. I think Nightmare Scenario runs into some problems with attack mechanics. Who gets to decide which figure is attacked first - Lily's controller or the victim's controller.
I think re-wording is in order.

Lots of thanks for the insights guys.

I would love to re-do her card. This one's dear to me.
Do I up her price? Up the D20 roll on Aura?


Oh and Kark's fan fiction with Lily was just the best. I loved her in that story - such a good little painter.
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  #16  
Old January 4th, 2007, 01:09 PM
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I will have to pass on Lily also. I do like the abilities but they could use a bit of reworking. I will ponder suggestions and post them in H_E_H's custom thread.
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  #17  
Old January 4th, 2007, 02:29 PM
DoesntCompute DoesntCompute is offline
 
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I say no to Lily.

Costed too low. Morsbane is 100 points and only has one ability which is the equivilant of Nightmare Scenario.

Frightening Aura - I don't like the mechanic of it. I believe it would be better if it was the defensive equivilant of MBS's stare where the person flat out can't attack the child. I would also like to see this ability have some sort of range tied to it. DED is not going to be scared of a little bloodsplattered girl 10 spaces away as he draws a bead on her.

This unit looks like fun. The tactical implications with her are amazing as Nightmare does not specify opponent's figure but I do not feel the card as submitted is worthy of being in the Halls. I would reconsider if she was costed at maybe 100-120 and the Aura ability was redone to be more like MBS's in mechanics and range limitation.

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  #18  
Old January 4th, 2007, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DoesntCompute
Frightening Aura - I don't like the mechanic of it. I believe it would be better if it was the defensive equivilant of MBS's stare where the person flat out can't attack the child. I would also like to see this ability have some sort of range tied to it. DED is not going to be scared of a little bloodsplattered girl 10 spaces away as he draws a bead on her.
Yeah, Aura implies it's an area of affect, but would DED really shoot a little girl? The Frightening Aura makes him think twice.
The idea is Lily has these immense brain powers. She instills the fear in whomever. I love the idea she can counter a long range unit like DED. It's another Utgar-power-right-back-at-ya-Jandar-&-Ullar.

Thank you for the feedback. Chaos, I'll be looking for yours.
I want to update Lily and hopefully get her perfect.
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  #19  
Old January 4th, 2007, 04:52 PM
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I really like Lily, H_E_H, but I also think she is a bit underpriced. I think dropping her stats to 2/2 would fix some of this, but I'll follow suite, and take this to your custom thread in a bit for more discussion. I'd love to see her reworked, I think she has the potential to be in the halls, just need to buff out some of the small kinks.

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  #20  
Old January 5th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Karkadinn Karkadinn is offline
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I find it interesting that so many think her overpriced. The Nightmare Scenario only goes off 25% of the time, and is influenced by the opponent's drafting choices and figure placement. For instance, it doesn't do any good to NS Drake, if Drake is engaged with a bunch of enemies but there's no friendlies nearby.
Most of the units with friendly adjacency buffing powers actually have fairly mediocre attacks. Finn has an attack of 3, for instance. The NS doesn't even work at range! The same goes for the Romans, Kelda, Grimnak, the Parmenio, etc. The units that NEED to be adjacent are generally cheap and disposable and their stats reflect that.
I think she's perfectly costed as is and would be annoyed if all this naysaying made HEH up her cost, thus making her less viable for a variety of armies.
Morsbane is in no way comparable, the usages of their powers are totally different. Lily can get an extra 2-3 dice attack 25% of the time... making her raw firepower still much less than that of the Tarn Vikings on average! Morsbane completely cripples units, permanently, down to their base stats. Totallly, totally different.

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  #21  
Old January 5th, 2007, 10:08 AM
ArchonShiva ArchonShiva is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karkadinn
Most of the units with friendly adjacency buffing powers actually have fairly mediocre attacks. Finn has an attack of 3, for instance. The NS doesn't even work at range! The same goes for the Romans, Kelda, Grimnak, the Parmenio, etc. The units that NEED to be adjacent are generally cheap and disposable and their stats reflect that.
Three dice will make short work of romans, however, and Tornak wil tear his Orcs to pieces, as the Swogs will. We're talking about mostly decimating the troops you're supporting. You can use it on your guys to attack all targets instead of one (desperation move, since it's 25%, but still useable) as well. And it does work at range -- for her.

But that's not so much the real problem, I think. My problem is, she has the combat stats of a Kyrie! A child. With a knife!! Kelda has a spear, for crying out loud. Grimnak (the orc) attacks for TWO DICE with his huge cleavers.

Wording on nightmare is also vague-ish, and has punctuation issues. That said, I believe at this point further discussion should happen in HEH's thread, especially since he said he wanted to retouch her anyway.

I still like her, and would want her in.

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  #22  
Old January 5th, 2007, 11:24 AM
Stealth Dodge Stealth Dodge is offline
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Figures with D20 abilities are often given higher point costs than one would expect due to their game breaking effects.

Not only can Lily absolutely crush support (goodbye Raelin/Q9 Combo, Snipers/Taelord Combo, basically ANY combo requiring adjacency) but the biggest problem is that she gives the figure MULTIPLE attacks.

Imagine your Jotun getting 4 attacks with 8 dice instead of just 1!!!! Imagine Draik closing on ranged and then getting 3 or 4 attacks with 6 dice, that is crazy

**Lily is WAY more powerful than Morsbane. Morsbane simply removes specials's and as a 5% chance to kill. Lily on the other hand eliminates support type play from the game AND allows you to use your opponents army to wipe out its own pieces! Lily ALSO has the crazy ability of granting multiple attacks to your own pieces. That ability in itself is worth WAY more than 70 points
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  #23  
Old January 5th, 2007, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Dodge
Figures with D20 abilities are often given higher point costs than one would expect due to their game breaking effects.

Not only can Lily absolutely crush support (goodbye Raelin/Q9 Combo, Snipers/Taelord Combo, basically ANY combo requiring adjacency) but the biggest problem is that she gives the figure MULTIPLE attacks.

Imagine your Jotun getting 4 attacks with 8 dice instead of just 1!!!! Imagine Draik closing on ranged and then getting 3 or 4 attacks with 6 dice, that is crazy

**Lily is WAY more powerful than Morsbane. Morsbane simply removes specials's and as a 5% chance to kill. Lily on the other hand eliminates support type play from the game AND allows you to use your opponents army to wipe out its own pieces! Lily ALSO has the crazy ability of granting multiple attacks to your own pieces. That ability in itself is worth WAY more than 70 points
Multiple attacks a big problem?
If an opponent has Jotun or Drake adjacent to several friendlies when Lily gets in range, they have no one to blame but themselves - and Utgar.
I like keeping Lily low and affordable. LIke MBS and a cheaper Sudema.
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  #24  
Old January 5th, 2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hex_Enduction_Hour
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Dodge
Figures with D20 abilities are often given higher point costs than one would expect due to their game breaking effects.

Not only can Lily absolutely crush support (goodbye Raelin/Q9 Combo, Snipers/Taelord Combo, basically ANY combo requiring adjacency) but the biggest problem is that she gives the figure MULTIPLE attacks.

Imagine your Jotun getting 4 attacks with 8 dice instead of just 1!!!! Imagine Draik closing on ranged and then getting 3 or 4 attacks with 6 dice, that is crazy

**Lily is WAY more powerful than Morsbane. Morsbane simply removes specials's and as a 5% chance to kill. Lily on the other hand eliminates support type play from the game AND allows you to use your opponents army to wipe out its own pieces! Lily ALSO has the crazy ability of granting multiple attacks to your own pieces. That ability in itself is worth WAY more than 70 points
Multiple attacks a big problem?
If an opponent has Jotun or Drake adjacent to several friendlies when Lily gets in range, they have no one to blame but themselves - and Utgar.
I like keeping Lily low and affordable. LIke MBS and a cheaper Sudema.
Yes, but what about Lily and Jotun or any other high attack unit in the same army? The power makes no distinction that it needs to be enemy figures, giving a friendly Jotun multiple attacks of 8 is pretty potent.
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