The Book of Superman (Justice League)

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Hahma

I didn't go to college, so I'd be screwed if I were still in this project. Reminds me why I'll never get back into it.

I'm taking the night off and watching Man from High Castle. Not bad so far. I might take off the week (or month) at this rate.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm taking the night off and watching Man from High Castle. Not bad so far. I might take off the week (or month) at this rate.

Life's too short to not enjoy it

[Arkham]

I'm just going to exclude myself from this. I figured since this was put in the public, the public's opinion/concerns would be welcomed and encouraged, but instead, mine specifically, is being met with anguish, disregard, jokes, and overreaction.

Like with any design, if one doesn't like it, one doesn't have to use it.

[IAmBatman]

Sorry you feel that way! But I'm certainly not in control of how you feel.

Should I abandon my planned researched argumentative response to your concerns, then?

Is there anyone else in need of a formal response on my position on this thread?

I'd like to know where folks stand in interest of (eventually) moving forward. It'll give me an indication of how much mental energy I'm going to need to expend in order to do so (and thus a rough idea of how much prep time I'll need to set aside).

Being at the end of a term, with lots of grading to do, and still working my way through an upper respiratory infection, I have limited mental energy to exert, so I hope to be able to use it efficiently.

Edit: I want to mention, since I realize the written word is tonally neutral, that no sarcasm or jokeyness was intended in this post at all. I mean every bit of it in earnest and in true and open interest.

[Hahma]

1. JLA TRINITY changed to have a cap of three markers.
2. Life and Defense reduced to 7 each.
3. Symbol of Justice changed to Symbol of Hope
4. Symbol of Hope's mechanics changed to static power based on blanks becoming shields and marker burn power based on target swapping verbiage from Malekith, that lasts for the entire round.
5. Tweaks made to shorten the text of Symbol of Hope
6. Static marker portion of Symbol of Hope added to JLA Trinity, Entire round effect removed from Symbol of Hope, space restriction on chosen figure movement removed from Symbol of Hope, auto shield added to Symbol of Hope, Symbol of Hope wording tweaked.
7. Powers reordered.
8. Symbol of Hope wording tweaked for clarity
9. And again.
10. Symbol of Hope changed to +2 defense for chosen figure, rather than +1 auto shield.
11. Post Initial: Symbol of Hope specified to protect any other figure (so not Superman), Move bumped from 10 to 8, Attack bumped from 8 to 7.

Aside from some text changes and whatnot, there were some changes in power levels that I see. So there's been compromise. The +2 defense seems like it replaced a +1 Auto Shield. The auto shield is better defensively, but the +2 defense is better for counter strikers. Though, counter strike only works in certain situations and the auto shield doesn't rely on it being a melee attack.

From what I gathered, TB suggested 450 and not much lower. AG was in around 430, seemingly to account for not having to have a counter strike unit in the game (in order to make him worth closer to 450), but would rather not have to have counter strikers included to make him worth 450, and thus wanting 430 to account for non-counter strikers included?

It seems to me that Bats tried to find some middle ground at 440.

I understand the thematic issues AG has with the added defense for the unit "tagging in" so to speak. I'm not going to read the entire thread to see when exactly the +1 auto shield was put in, and then when it was changed to a +2 defense. But it seems like thematic concerns would have been addressed and gotten supported by others at these times of inclusion and tweaking.

I can't speak to how powerful he felt, as I didn't test him. But if one tester says 430 and another tester says 450, and another tester says 440, then it seems like the 440 fits between the other two extremes.

One thing that is in the back of people's minds, is that nobody wants this guy, or any other unit for that matter, to have to get reevaluated. Part of that is taking into account the cheeseball tactics and super deckbuilding, I mean army building that would be used in competitive play. So hopefully the err is to the slightly underpowered, rather than overpowered.

As far as my comments earlier, I was just being honest as to not wanting to deal with all of this stuff anymore. I put a lot of years into it and there were a lot of stressful times. I'm 48 now and have no interest in spending the time or energy required for the debates that are part of this project's process.

[quozl]

Looks like you'd do just fine if you got back in, Hahma.

[IAmBatman]

I feel, as does, I believe @Viegon , that his highest value is going to be with counter striking types of figures regardless of whether an auto shield or a +1 defense boost or +2 defense boost or no defensive boost is there or not. Defending with a figure that has a counter striking ability is competitively stronger than not doing so, straight up. For three uses a game, though, I like it having impact, and there are certainly thematic counter striking types of options to pair with Supes (Batman I and II, Huntress, and Green Lantern John Stewart are all JL members, for instance) as well as opportunities to add more (like Katana).

I don't honestly think it's possible given the constraints of this Justice League approach to make it so Superman's best army builds are always thematic ones. With the approach we've taken, he's going to love Mar-Vell in competitive play. I believe that's true regardless of a defensive boost, based on the defensive swapping alone. And if you don't get the defensive boost from Supes, there are lots of other figures you can get it from in your army building anyhow.

Similarly, I believe Martian Manhunter (II), who I really enjoy in thematic Justice League builds, probably has his best and most exploitable builds as non-thematic ones.

In the case of both designs, I feel that thematic builds are viable (the sample sizes quoted for counter striking versus non-counter striking armies are very limited and include many other variables beyond just counter striking versus non-counter striking) but that going up to 450 points would discourage his use in thematic builds, as then you run into Superman (II) at 450 points.

Therefore I feel that in terms of the metagame and our goals for him, he's best at 440 points, I feel that any changes to his defensive ability suggested thus far would not address the concerns that were brought forth, I feel he's completely viable in thematic armies at 440, reasonably competitive there, and tons of fun, and that he's a design I believe in.

I believe in competitive play he may feel slightly undercosted at times, but not broken, which is a perspective I feel has been supported by other testers, including @TrollBrute .

Rather than rob him of thematic playability in order to avoid his being 10 or so points worth of a bargain in competitive play, I'd rather make sure he's not broken in competitive play, but let him be a tad undercosted if that secures his place in the far more important (IMO) thematic play.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by quozl

Looks like you'd do just fine if you got back in, Hahma.

Thanks Q

Though, I already have issues sleeping and don't want to make it worse

[laughing matter]

What is the point cost supposed to be at now anyway?

[IAmBatman]

A note on the theme of the power, since it’s been questioned:

The theme of the power is that Superman is the first modern superhero, a symbol of hope, encouraging others to do acts of heroism by his presence and (to a lesser extent) their affiliation with him in the Justice League. This isn’t Superman teaching them how to behave or telling them what to do on a Justice League communicator. It’s him inspiring them. It’s these others heroes or would be heroes seeing Superman, seeing someone in trouble, and thinking, yeah, I can make a heroic sacrifice too. I can push myself to give all I can. I can be my very best. I’m inspired.

Adding to statistics is consistent with inspiration-themed powers. The Skrull Warriors have Skrull Champion’s Inspiration pushing them to be better fighters. Solovar’s Simian Inspiration makes other apes move faster and defend better. Thunderers of Qward add to their attacks when malevolently inspired by Destroyers.

One might question the theme of Superman inspiring heroes like Huntress to be ruthless. Superman is simply acting as a symbol of hope and heroism and individuals are filtering that symbol through their own perception of what it means to be a hero. For Huntress, that means getting in someone’s face, sacrificing herself, and being ruthless while she’s at it. If we’re going to allow Deathstroke to be in an army with Superman and be inspired by Superman’s symbol, is the theme break really coming with Deathstroke acts like Deathstroke (though perhaps a bit more altruistic) rather than if Deathstroke suddenly started acting like someone else?

In real life (and the comics as well, for that matter) people don’t get to control how their symbols are used and interpreted. Just as the Buddhist symbol of peace (aka Swastika).

A note on building thematic armies, and why removing the defensive bonus would take us in the wrong direction:

I think the best way to explain my perspective on this one is with a hypothetical example. Let’s say I’m running Superman (III) with Black Canary and Green Arrow, because I really like the thematic combination. One of the biggest issues with Black Canary and Green Arrow is that they’re kind of glass cannons in this game. They have awesome offensive output, but only 4 Life each, lowish defense, and no defensive powers. And they’re at their best, thematically and mechanically, when both are alive and working Cupid’s Arrow.

So, theoretically, I want to accomplish two things for as long as I can in gameplay: 1. Keep both heroes alive 2. Keep Green Arrow close to the action, but unengaged so he can still be activated with Cupid’s Arrow.

Let’s say someone with a big attack engages Green Arrow. Perfect time to use a JL Marker from Superman and send Black Canary over to save her beau (pun) and keep my Cupid’s Arrow connection alive, well, and appropriately placed, right?

Except we decided to scrap the +2 defense, Black Canary is more valuable to me overall than Green Arrow (and has more OMs on her still), and with only 4 Life and 5 Defense, I’m not really sure I want her to take this hit. But with the +2 defense still there? Yeah, special defensive powers be darned, I’m moving Black Canary in and keeping the combination alive.

My point? If we remove that +2 defense, we lessen the utility of the power. At that point I only want to use it with units who have special defensive powers. Right now those units are the better pics, but in game I would certainly use the power in other, thematic circumstances, as needed, to keep my important figures upright.

Captain Mar-Vell is going to be the best choice for the power regardless. I don’t want to lose the great Black Canary/Green Arrow move (and those like it) in a fruitless attempt to change the unchangeable.

A note on the balance of the card itself and why removing the defensive bonus would take us in the wrong direction:

I believe @Yodaking was pretty all over this. Superman getting the blanks on defense is a pretty good power. It kind of makes you want to keep the markers on Superman. He seemed almost unsure he wanted to burn them at times, which tells me there’s some tension between keeping the markers or burning them. This is good.

What is not good, IMO, is to depower the burn effect any and risk folks never wanting to use it. Without the +2 defense, I simply don’t burn the markers in the hypothetical Black Canary/Green Arrow example above. In fact, I probably never burn a marker outside of a power-gaming, defensive ability inspired move with someone like Captain Mar-Vell. The power is used less, becomes less helpful, becomes less thematic, and further encourages you to only use this Superman in highly competitive builds rather than highly thematic ones at this point, IMO.

So these are the reasons I like Superman with the +2 defensive bonus that he was playtested with, that I found him to be fun with, that he passed the fun tests from the playtesters with as far as I saw.

It’s not that I haven’t considered the other options. It’s that I don’t agree they are fixes and I see them as detracting from where this design is at. I was hoping to move forward without having to write an extensive post about it, because it’s kind of exhausting to have to defend the design to this level, but I do care what others think and want, and I at least try not to be a completely selfish jerkface (contrary to some posts in this thread, apparently), so here’s my thoughts on where the design is at and if I need to crank out another essay later, I guess I will.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

What is the point cost supposed to be at now anyway?

440 points, as is listed in the SP. Also, this passes to Final Editing 3-1-1.

[IAmBatman]

OK, the SP is updated here fully. Final, voted on cost as well as Yodaking's take on Symbol of Hope, which reads more clearly to me.

If folks want to read through the wording and let us know if there are any lingering concerns, that'd be awesome. I'm hoping to let @japes put the cards together efficiently and without having to make too many changes.