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View Poll Results: What do you think of allowing partial common squad drafting?
like it. 31 20.53%
like it, and I would even allow less than a single squad. 8 5.30%
don't like it, because I like the challenge of drafting to a point total. 26 17.22%
don't like it, because I like the low-point heroes and this brings us closer to squadscape. 5 3.31%
don't like it, for both of the above reasons. 42 27.81%
don't like it, for a different reason. 29 19.21%
unsure/no opinion 7 4.64%
other 3 1.99%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old November 12th, 2008, 12:52 AM
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Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Say you're putting together an all-Marro, Hivelord-based 500 point army. You start with Su-Bak-Na and Tor-Kul-Na. The Marro Warriors are an easy choice for a cheap squad, ranged support, and glyph grabber. That puts you at 430. Of course, you want to fill in with Marrden Nagrubs as your base bonding squad. So, that brings you to:

160 Su-Bak-Na
220 Tor-Kul-Na
50 Marro Warriors
60 Marrden Nagrubs x2
490

And then... you fill in with Isamu, of course. Granted, Isamu only leaves your start zone if you're desperate, and he doesn't fit your theme or have any synergy. But hey, you've got those 10 points, and there's nothing better to do with it...

Or is there? Since you've read the thread title, I'm probably not really keeping anyone in suspense here. The solution is obvious. Marrden Nagrubs cost 30 for a squad of three. Obviously, that's 10 points per figure. Just like Isamu, and just like those 10 points you have left.

Why don't we allow this?

160 Su-Bak-Na
220 Tor-Kul-Na
50 Marro Warriors
70 Marrden Nagrubs x(2 + 1/3)
500

Given the nature of common squads, I don't see how this opens up any possible abuses. There's no real tactical difference; the difference is just that we're allowing armies to bulk up their existing squads slightly in stead of adding in filler units.

Now, I want to be clear what I am suggesting:
  • I'm not suggesting that you should be able to draft something less than a single squad. I can see several potential issues that could cause. I am suggesting that, if you have already drafted a common squad, you should be able to draft a partial squad on top of that.
  • Implicit in the previous point is that you can only do this with common squads, not with unique squads.
  • Round up the point values. So 1 extra 4th Mass costs 18 points, 2 cost 35, and 3 cost 53.

Thoughts? I like this idea because it means armies designs are much less at the mercy of the granularity of squad costs.
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  #2  
Old November 12th, 2008, 01:13 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

THat would be a good idea!

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  #3  
Old November 12th, 2008, 01:24 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

It's rather hard to figure out how many points a single squad member is worth.

Two KMA or three 4th Line are worth quite a bit less than their full squads, in my opinion.


...And I know that there have been other topics like this, but my search skills have failed me. We'll have to wait for Cav.
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  #4  
Old November 12th, 2008, 01:27 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Had this idea a year or so ago (it's a good one, IMO, though it would be a house rule). What's your next one?

EDIT: LP: The OP is correct in the handling of it. You couldn't draft less than a full squad. You could only purchase a partial squad if you already have a full squad. And once you have 4 4th Mass., 2 more should definitely be worth their 35 points. But again, all this has been done before...see my thread listed below (first) under 'similar threads':
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=17491

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  #5  
Old November 12th, 2008, 01:31 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
It's rather hard to figure out how many points a single squad member is worth.

Two KMA or three 4th Line are worth quite a bit less than their full squads, in my opinion.
As I said, I only suggest allowing this for additional squad members, on top of at least one common squad. The less-than-one squad scenarios you suggest are not what I'm talking about.

We don't really know what the value of a 10th stinger is in some deep sense. But we know that the 7th, 8th, and 9th were collectively valued at 60 points, and we know the 10th, 11th, and 12th were collectively valued at 60 as well. It's not exactly a stretch to argue that, after the first squad, each additional stinger costs about 20 points.
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  #6  
Old November 12th, 2008, 02:49 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

When Necro mentioned this a while ago, I tried to come up with a way to abuse it, but nothing fancy came to mind. It would give blasts/glads more options, since they come in pretty big chunks. The ability to adjust their numbers one by one would make them stronger. For instance, you could now go with 14 glads, 9 blasts, and Raelin-- that's 495/24. The ability to use one to three 4th Line as valiant filler would definitely be a help. So some strong commons would get mildly stronger, and Isamu/Marcu/Otonashi would get weaker, but that's about it. I have no complaint.
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  #7  
Old November 12th, 2008, 03:59 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Squadscape is fun, but doing that would just make drafting too easy.

I only have 70 points left. No big deal, I'll just draft one less Yari. NOW I have enough for Raelin.

Instead of drafting something else to fill those remaining 70 points, you just end up picking the same figures over and over. With set point totals you sometimes have to not pick Jotun becuase you're 5 points over.

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Old November 12th, 2008, 04:47 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer View Post
Squadscape is fun, but doing that would just make drafting too easy.

I only have 70 points left. No big deal, I'll just draft one less Yari. NOW I have enough for Raelin.

Instead of drafting something else to fill those remaining 70 points, you just end up picking the same figures over and over. With set point totals you sometimes have to not pick Jotun becuase you're 5 points over.
I think achieving the most tuned armies would be much harder under such a system. Where's the right balance-- is it still eight knights, eight 4th Mass, Gilbert, and Alastair, or would six knights and 10 minutemen be better? Is 12 stingers, eight rats, and Q9 still the best idea, or should you go with 10 stingers and 12 rats to fill all available start zone spaces? Those don't sound like easy questions to me!

Last edited by rdhight; November 12th, 2008 at 08:36 AM. Reason: typo
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Old November 12th, 2008, 06:45 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer View Post
Squadscape is fun, but doing that would just make drafting too easy.

I only have 70 points left. No big deal, I'll just draft one less Yari. NOW I have enough for Raelin.

Instead of drafting something else to fill those remaining 70 points, you just end up picking the same figures over and over. With set point totals you sometimes have to not pick Jotun becuase you're 5 points over.
I think achieving the most tuned armies would be much harder under such a system. Where's the right balance-- is it still eight knights, eight 4th Mass, Gilbert, and Alastair, or would six knights and 10 minutemen be better? Is 12 stingers, eight rats, and Q9 still the best mix idea, or should you go with 10 stingers and 12 rats to fill all available start zone spaces? Those don't sound like easy questions to me!
If you put 12 rats on the board.......your opponent should be allowed to slap you once each round to offset the annoyance factor alone.

Apart from that.....

I think the breaking of squads that way makes a difference in drafting because it takes away the trouble of working around the bonding/synergy aspects of some units by making the combinations easier to adjust to the points.

There is a subtle difference in allowing someone to split two different common squads - for example taking 7 knights and 7 minute men would be a different scenario than taking 6/8 or 8/6. The 8/6 and 6/8 difference would be little different than the 7/7 but the two of them would be very different from each other.

However, other than rdhight wanting to annoy someone with 13 1/2 squads of rats and end run around the "drafting synergy" issue - I dont know of a reason in terms of game play that would be hurt by this...other than its just not in the rules....*Shrug*











(My thoughts on this have been changing as I type, and I will test this out a bit perhaps but still have a gut feeling that it shouldnt be done.)
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  #10  
Old November 12th, 2008, 07:19 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

Just too complicated.

Why bother? We can already have masses of fun without this crazy "I want half a deathreavers." What great advantage do we get? Just being able to have a slightly larger, purer army. That's not going to make it more fun.

And yes, this is one of the reasons low point cost units are so great. Why not try a little variety in your army?

And I think ParaGoomba Slayer's point is very good. This will most commonly be used to "get enough points for Raelin" or something like that. It will be incredibly annoying to see tournament armies filled with "1 and 3/4 of a deathreavers and 1 and 2/3 of a Minions"... because that way I have enough for Cyprien! (I am not claiming this would win, well perhaps if NWOjedi was playing it.)
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  #11  
Old November 12th, 2008, 08:30 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

This seems a little bit like a crutch. Instead I would try to focus on how best to fill the army with the existing values. If you've got all those points left over, you might want to re-examine the whole army build, not just tack on more of an existing unit to "top-off".

That said, this would be just fine with me in a casual setting.


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Old November 12th, 2008, 11:05 AM
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Re: Why not allow partial common squad drafting?

I think this is a terrible idea. I cannot even begin to describe the number of times I've had an army idea that was just 5 or 10 points over a tourney limit and could have easily fit with "one less rat". In my opinion you can craft much more powerful armies by picking and choosing exactly how many figures of commons you use above the base limit.

Among other things, simply taking one or two extra above the base would be a huge advantage - the bonus of commons without quite the cost. Imagine Sentinels or Minions - both tough and expensive squads that would be happy to give up a fig to squeeze under 200 points. Knights and 4th are another excellent example - 3xKoW/4th mix is only 210 - add Sir Gil for 315 and I wonder what might fit that 185 point slot...? All without giving up the multiples redundancy for either the Knights or the 4th!

In my opinion, the prices of commons are calculated with a thought to how they fit, in blocks, into 400-600 point armies for the most part. I strongly recommend against partial squads.

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