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  #517  
Old June 3rd, 2014, 03:20 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

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And declaring war on the U.S. was pretty stupid too.
It's not that I think he made a bunch of great choices, it's just that I think labeling them "stupid" is too strong. He declared war on the USA after his ally, Japan, had bombed Pearl Harbor. It seems reasonable to me to think that the USA might be focusing on Japan rather than on him.

Hitler overestimated his allies, Italy and Japan and underestimated Russia, England and the USA. But how was he supposed to know? Russia he almost succeeded in taking, England had tried to appease him as recently as 1938 when he annexed the Sudentenland and the USA was supposed to be tied up fighting Japan.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure there was a winning condition for Hitler. If he takes England in Sea Lion, Russia grows strong in the interim. If he manages to take Russia and then England, Japan still falls to the USA in the Pacific and China, the USA and unconquered eastern Russia come through the Middle East and the Baltics. There just were never going to be enough resources for Hitler to conquer the world. If for no other reason than he just plain didn't have enough people.

~Aldin, who thinks Hitler was evil and crazy but thinks turning him into a cartoon of himself is a disservice to making sure a new Hitler never arises

Yeah, "stupid" is too strong. That's what I get when trying to respond from work when I'm not supposed to be on the computer much and I end up rushing my responses. Perhaps "crazy" is more appropriate.

Hitler was smart in the way he had tested the world in so many ways. He got himself into power because the leaders in Germany figured they could control him and his annoying party, but that backfired when he had them killed and took over for himself.

He went in and took Austria, then Alsace Lorrain (sp?) and then into parts of Czechoslovakia. While there were verbal protests here and there, nobody was going to stand up to him. Chamberlain didn't want war, as England and France were still recovering from WWI. So Hitler pushed more and took the rest of Czechoslovakia then went to Poland, Holland etc. He couldn't move tanks into England and they had the best Navy around, so he tried bombing them into submission, but that made them stronger.

Italy wasn't doing much to help hold up their end of the bargain.

Japan pretty much overextended a bit and Midway was the turning point where we kicked them in the teeth and our industrial might was showing what it was capable of.

Germany and Japan weren't the largest countries, but they had built up their military while the U.S. and England were building up their infrastructure. Both Germany and Japan had a good head start at the beginning of the war, but when push came to shove, England and the U.S. caught up and were cranking out planes, tanks, ships.

I just think that for Hitler to think he could take over the entire world, it was a little bit "ambitious".

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  #518  
Old June 3rd, 2014, 04:49 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Well said, Hahma. Whenever I consider his options during WW2, I always end up wondering what would have happened if Hitler had sued for peace in June of 1940, giving away all of the territory west of the Seine and claiming what had happened as retaliation for the bungled post-WW1 management of Germany.

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  #519  
Old June 3rd, 2014, 05:02 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Haven't had time to read the WWII debate fully, but I thought I'd point out that Stalin had thousands of troops that hadn't even been deployed when the war ended - really, the actions of the U.S. and U.K. at D Day probably helped end the war sooner and with fewer casualties, but the Soviets could probably have won without it.


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  #520  
Old June 4th, 2014, 03:19 AM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Haven't had time to read the WWII debate fully, but I thought I'd point out that Stalin had thousands of troops that hadn't even been deployed when the war ended - really, the actions of the U.S. and U.K. at D Day probably helped end the war sooner and with fewer casualties, but the Soviets could probably have won without it.
Don't confuse large numbers with fighting strength. The Russians were pressing everyone into service, very few of which had any training or skills as soldiers. I know they rounded up prisoners and Japanese POWs housed in Siberia, threw them on a train heading to Europe, marched them out in front of the German Army, and told them that the only way they would live to see tomorrow is if they defeated the German Army in front of them. Anyone that refused to fight would be shot by Russian machine guns, anyone that attempted to retreat would be shot by Russian machine guns. Their military equipment was limited, handing out 1 rifle for every 3 'soldiers' being sent at the enemy. The ones with no rifle were told that when the guy with the rifle dies they should pick it up.
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  #521  
Old June 4th, 2014, 04:53 AM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

I enjoyed the program also, but there were many things they could not cover in the time they had. One of the reasons the Germans attacked Russia when they did was that Stalin was conducting a military expansion program at the time, and was quickly catching up to the Germans. Hitler actually only had a year or so when his forces would retain their clear military superiority, and the window was closing fast! So rather than give up on the whole thing, he took his shot while he still had a chance.

Our lend lease supplies were as important to Russian's war effort as our military "second front." Although Stalin attempted to hide its significance, when the Soviet Union dissolved, many 'new' photos of the Russians using US and British equipment came to light. We provided almost all of their trucks, for instance, and their vehicle shortage was why they were always riding their tanks!

On the other hand, the Soviet struggle was amazing and key to our own war effort. Eisenhower's son wrote in his book that even very late in the war when we were clearly winning, once the Russians had to pause to regroup on the Eastern Front, our 'victorious' armies couldn't advance a single mile toward Germany.

The TV program left out the entire key North African campaign where the US and British linked up to eventually surround all the Germans there. When the Germans surrendered 250,000 men in Tunesia at the end, that was as many as they lost at Stalingrad!

Because all totalitarian alliances are uneasy and impermanent, Hitler probably felt that he had to take advantage of Japanese momentum when he could. Like his difficulty with the Italians (and Spain, for that matter, in seeking supplies) he had to take what he could get when he could get it from his 'allies'...and not let them get too far ahead of him in the race to 'conquer the world.'

And let's not forget China, which is as large as the United States. We supplied them too! The Japanese, during the entire Pacific war, had to keep big armies on the Asian mainland to hold the huge coastal areas they had conquered from China to Southeast Asia, and fight battles in the China-Burma-India (CBI) Theater as well.

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Last edited by chas; June 4th, 2014 at 05:47 AM.
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  #522  
Old June 4th, 2014, 07:04 AM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Great post Chas. Thanks for the added insight!

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  #523  
Old June 4th, 2014, 10:21 AM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Thanks for the insight chas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Haven't had time to read the WWII debate fully, but I thought I'd point out that Stalin had thousands of troops that hadn't even been deployed when the war ended - really, the actions of the U.S. and U.K. at D Day probably helped end the war sooner and with fewer casualties, but the Soviets could probably have won without it.
Don't confuse large numbers with fighting strength. The Russians were pressing everyone into service, very few of which had any training or skills as soldiers. I know they rounded up prisoners and Japanese POWs housed in Siberia, threw them on a train heading to Europe, marched them out in front of the German Army, and told them that the only way they would live to see tomorrow is if they defeated the German Army in front of them. Anyone that refused to fight would be shot by Russian machine guns, anyone that attempted to retreat would be shot by Russian machine guns. Their military equipment was limited, handing out 1 rifle for every 3 'soldiers' being sent at the enemy. The ones with no rifle were told that when the guy with the rifle dies they should pick it up.
This is depicted incredibly well in my favorite military movie, Enemy at the Gates.
A must see IMO.

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  #524  
Old June 4th, 2014, 12:16 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

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Thanks for the insight chas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Haven't had time to read the WWII debate fully, but I thought I'd point out that Stalin had thousands of troops that hadn't even been deployed when the war ended - really, the actions of the U.S. and U.K. at D Day probably helped end the war sooner and with fewer casualties, but the Soviets could probably have won without it.
Don't confuse large numbers with fighting strength. The Russians were pressing everyone into service, very few of which had any training or skills as soldiers. I know they rounded up prisoners and Japanese POWs housed in Siberia, threw them on a train heading to Europe, marched them out in front of the German Army, and told them that the only way they would live to see tomorrow is if they defeated the German Army in front of them. Anyone that refused to fight would be shot by Russian machine guns, anyone that attempted to retreat would be shot by Russian machine guns. Their military equipment was limited, handing out 1 rifle for every 3 'soldiers' being sent at the enemy. The ones with no rifle were told that when the guy with the rifle dies they should pick it up.
This is depicted incredibly well in my favorite military movie, Enemy at the Gates.
A must see IMO.

Yep, great movie.


Also, watched Turn last night and continue to love this show. Next week's season finale looks great.

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  #525  
Old June 4th, 2014, 12:34 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Yeah, Enemy at the Gates is a good film. You should check out the South Korean movie My Way (2011), it is based on a true story about a Korean who was captured by the Americans on D-Day. Pretty good story that covers several different fronts of the World War. The early part of the film when the main two characters are just boys in Korea has a pretty cheesy tone, but then the war starts up and the tone changes completely and turns into a pretty serious (and good) war movie.
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  #526  
Old June 4th, 2014, 03:07 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Yeah, Enemy at the Gates is a good film. You should check out the South Korean movie My Way (2011), it is based on a true story about a Korean who was captured by the Americans on D-Day. Pretty good story that covers several different fronts of the World War. The early part of the film when the main two characters are just boys in Korea has a pretty cheesy tone, but then the war starts up and the tone changes completely and turns into a pretty serious (and good) war movie.
I heard something about a Korean that was somehow captured by the Russians and then by the Germans or something to that effect. He had quite the journey.

There were white Russians fighting for the Germans also on D-Day.

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  #527  
Old June 5th, 2014, 04:19 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Haven't had time to read the WWII debate fully, but I thought I'd point out that Stalin had thousands of troops that hadn't even been deployed when the war ended - really, the actions of the U.S. and U.K. at D Day probably helped end the war sooner and with fewer casualties, but the Soviets could probably have won without it.
Don't confuse large numbers with fighting strength. The Russians were pressing everyone into service, very few of which had any training or skills as soldiers. I know they rounded up prisoners and Japanese POWs housed in Siberia, threw them on a train heading to Europe, marched them out in front of the German Army, and told them that the only way they would live to see tomorrow is if they defeated the German Army in front of them. Anyone that refused to fight would be shot by Russian machine guns, anyone that attempted to retreat would be shot by Russian machine guns. Their military equipment was limited, handing out 1 rifle for every 3 'soldiers' being sent at the enemy. The ones with no rifle were told that when the guy with the rifle dies they should pick it up.
Wow, didn't know that - that's really interesting! Shouldn't surprise me too much - after all, it was only fairly recently that the Russian military upgraded to socks. Still, you've got to hand it to 'em for the fact that it was their forces advancing on Hitler himself that caused him to commit suicide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas View Post
I enjoyed the program also, but there were many things they could not cover in the time they had. One of the reasons the Germans attacked Russia when they did was that Stalin was conducting a military expansion program at the time, and was quickly catching up to the Germans. Hitler actually only had a year or so when his forces would retain their clear military superiority, and the window was closing fast! So rather than give up on the whole thing, he took his shot while he still had a chance.

Our lend lease supplies were as important to Russian's war effort as our military "second front." Although Stalin attempted to hide its significance, when the Soviet Union dissolved, many 'new' photos of the Russians using US and British equipment came to light. We provided almost all of their trucks, for instance, and their vehicle shortage was why they were always riding their tanks!

On the other hand, the Soviet struggle was amazing and key to our own war effort. Eisenhower's son wrote in his book that even very late in the war when we were clearly winning, once the Russians had to pause to regroup on the Eastern Front, our 'victorious' armies couldn't advance a single mile toward Germany.

The TV program left out the entire key North African campaign where the US and British linked up to eventually surround all the Germans there. When the Germans surrendered 250,000 men in Tunesia at the end, that was as many as they lost at Stalingrad!

Because all totalitarian alliances are uneasy and impermanent, Hitler probably felt that he had to take advantage of Japanese momentum when he could. Like his difficulty with the Italians (and Spain, for that matter, in seeking supplies) he had to take what he could get when he could get it from his 'allies'...and not let them get too far ahead of him in the race to 'conquer the world.'

And let's not forget China, which is as large as the United States. We supplied them too! The Japanese, during the entire Pacific war, had to keep big armies on the Asian mainland to hold the huge coastal areas they had conquered from China to Southeast Asia, and fight battles in the China-Burma-India (CBI) Theater as well.

Chas
M.A. History
Interesting! I've done some work on WWII fairly recently but it was mainly internal German, Holocaust based stuff - I've done very little on the actual war so far.

On another note more in-keeping with thread, watched the fourth episode of 24: Live Another Day a couple of nights ago - really enjoying it so far. Quite an improvement on the last series, IMO - that one was quite disappointing to me.


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  #528  
Old June 5th, 2014, 04:33 PM
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Re: TV: What Are You Watching?

Check out Enemy at the Gates L_O. You will see one soldier get handed a gun and the next get bullets.
"When the man with gun dies, the man with the bullets picks up the gun." Or something like that.

I read a great Piers Anthony book that had a story about that same battle and mirrored EatG quite nicely. When I saw the movie, it matched visually what I saw in my head when reading the novel. It was a surreal experience.

Anyone willing to admit they watch The Originals?

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