Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Off-Topic > General
General Random thoughts and ideas. "General" does not mean random drivel, nonsense or inane silliness.

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #109  
Old November 11th, 2015, 05:20 PM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Enjoy the Sausage
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 27,984
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: Science! Science? Science...

I trust corporations to try to make money, and I trust governments to try to govern, though both are capable of corruption and/or incompetence. I don't trust either one to be responsive to all my own best interests, though. I trust Target to sell me a pack of athletic socks and a box of breakfast cereal; I trust the government to arrange for trash pick-up on Friday mornings. Not the other way around. And both are capable of disappointing me.

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
= =

Last edited by Dad_Scaper; November 11th, 2015 at 05:22 PM. Reason: . . . I trust teachers to try to teach, car mechanics to try to fix cars, etc. Not blind faith, but a little trust.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old November 11th, 2015, 05:27 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 17,578
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Heh

Do I trust either to do "the right thing"? Not really, no. I trust corporations to profit maximize. I trust governments to do certain things well and other things poorly. Sadly, I find most of my current "trust" in governments more of a "Well crap, no one else is doing it and the government at least wants to try."

~Dysole, noting there is room for altruism on both sides of this spectrum (Elon Musk and Medicaid are the first two examples that came to mind) but that most of the time we really can't rely on it
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old November 11th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Aldin's Avatar
Aldin Aldin is offline
Site Admin & Professional SideBoarder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Location: TN - Nashville
Posts: 13,547
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 4
Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Truly, I wasn't trying to start another area to explore or even to elicit responses. It was just a funny thought.

~Aldin, non-binarily

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old November 11th, 2015, 05:46 PM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 17,578
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Heh 2.0

Oh come on Aldin. You've played enough CoN to know that no matter how off topic the rhetorical question/theory is at least one person will chime in with their answer whether or not you wanted it. ^_^

~Dysole, never taking advantage of that
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old November 11th, 2015, 05:49 PM
Aldin's Avatar
Aldin Aldin is offline
Site Admin & Professional SideBoarder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Location: TN - Nashville
Posts: 13,547
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 4
Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Science! Science? Science...

@Dysole - yeah, you're right. I saw your and DS' responses and started feeling foolish. Reading back over what I wrote it was clear that the responses were inevitable. At the time I wrote it I thought "heh - people are going to read this and feel a bit of bemusement as they spend 10 seconds thinking about it before they move on to other things."

Unintended consequences.

~Aldin, who should be playing Fallout instead

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old November 11th, 2015, 06:04 PM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: USA - NY- New York
Posts: 2,885
Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
You are right, I do not have experience gathering climatic data. I have never said I do. What i do have is experience analyzing data, and analyzing any data is independent of the science. It's mathematical. Statistics does not care about the scientific laws that led to the data, it's only looking at the data itself.
Since you admit that you have no experience at gathering climatic data, wouldn't those that have collected the data be in a better position to analyze the data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
Rich, you don't need equal numbers - science doesn't give a flip about how many papers say things. it only cares about which ones are right! As an example, look at how Einstein's one paper changed modern physics, or how Edwin Hubble's studies changed our understanding of the universe.
If you could show me a number of scientific journals which dispute Einstein or Hubble's studies, I would agree with you. More evidence and journals support Einstein and Hubble than other theories; the numbers are on the side with the most evidence.


Climate science isn't a matter of coming up with a new understanding of the basic rules of the universe. It comes down to collecting data and identifying which variable is most likely responsible for causing change.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old November 11th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: USA - NY- New York
Posts: 2,885
Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
It makes them heroes. And they wouldn't necessarily be lying, per se - only stuck in a bit of confirmation bias, wanting to agree with the majority, and wanting to be recognized as a voice for positive change.
In work, I'm not interested in being a hero. I'm looking to make money at work. If you could make a compelling argument that burning fossil fuels is not a significant cause of global climate change or that such global climate change is an overall negative event, you would make an incredible amount of money. The coal industry would throw money at you. The petroleum industry would follow the coal industry. The Koch brothers would be your best friends. The financial reward in debunking that global climate change is caused by man would be incredible. Unfortunately, no one seems to be able to cash in on this opportunity.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old November 11th, 2015, 08:03 PM
The_X_Marker's Avatar
The_X_Marker The_X_Marker is offline
...lest we all lose that 3rd turn mystery
 
Join Date: November 9, 2010
Location: USA-NY-Long Island-Nassau
Posts: 605
The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla The_X_Marker is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post

Then you tell me - how do scientists know that they're doing science? What measure do they use to know that they're doing it and doing it right?
How about they use a measure of progress? When progress is made and is repeatable, they did science.

There is far too much money in people who are against scientific discovery and not nearly enough in the opposite.

Be polite: Don't put politics or religion in your signature!
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old November 11th, 2015, 08:36 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,737
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The question has always been, as I explicitly said, who benefits? This idea that climate scientists are lying because they have some overwhelming incentive to do so is just silly.

On the other side of the ledger, we have the fossil fuel industry, which obviously does benefit to an incredible degree, in terms of profit, from inaction on climate change. We saw this story play out with Big Tobacco, and now we have fairly explicit evidence that the fossil fuel industry is following the same playbook.

If you want to bring up profit motive and natural human tendencies, it's very, very clear that those who deny climate change have a lot more skin in the game than those who support the scientific consensus.
You raise a good point to discuss: what is the motivation of a scientist? I feel that the primary motivation is prestige. It's not money - clearly. It's also not fame - just how many scientists do you know by name? That seems only to leave prestige, especially among one's peers.

Agree? Disagree?
I really wish you could manage to take a step back and see how hilarious this response is. I point out that the people who fund all the climate denial have an obvious, direct, enormous profit motive to do so. Your response is to say, "oh, good point, we should question the motivations of the scientists." As if that's either (a) what I said, or (b) something that merits serious discussion.

Really, you have a VW Bus-sized blind spot on this issue. You seem almost constitutionally incapable of recognizing that the people who fund the fights against all these regulations (ostensibly on the grounds of questioning the science) have a massive, massive profit motive. Again, follow the money. This is big tobacco denying the cancer link, all over again.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old November 12th, 2015, 09:02 AM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: USA - NY- New York
Posts: 2,885
Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaethon View Post

You raise a good point to discuss: what is the motivation of a scientist? I feel that the primary motivation is prestige. It's not money - clearly. It's also not fame - just how many scientists do you know by name? That seems only to leave prestige, especially among one's peers.

Agree? Disagree?
I know a few people who would be considered scientists. By and large, they are passionate about what they do; it's more of a calling than a job. Most scientists have no fame. They don't seem to be more or less influenced by prestige than other people I know. Most are middle to upper middle class people who have families, bills, hobbies, etc. While they may not be as money focused as people I know in say finance, they have mortgages, car payments, kids education, 401k's, etc. Money is still important. That's why a number leave for more lucrative fields.

There is real money at stake in the global climate change discussion. Coal is still the cheapest way to make electricity. The coal industry has lost many billions in market value due to concerns about CO2 and global climate change. The money available to supporting the same conclusion as everyone else, that global climate change is a problem and that its man made, is very limited. The money that would be available to an overthrow of the current conventional thinking is staggering.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old November 12th, 2015, 09:16 AM
Aldin's Avatar
Aldin Aldin is offline
Site Admin & Professional SideBoarder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Location: TN - Nashville
Posts: 13,547
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 4
Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Since we're talking about money - out of curiosity, since I've never actually checked - who is paying to fund climate change studies?

~Aldin, monetarily

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old November 12th, 2015, 11:12 AM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
Join Date: July 8, 2008
Location: USA - NY- New York
Posts: 2,885
Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Rich10 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Science! Science? Science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Since we're talking about money - out of curiosity, since I've never actually checked - who is paying to fund climate change studies?

~Aldin, monetarily
That is a great question and I don't know the answer. I suspect that coming up with the answer might be difficult. To be fair, I'm sure that the government funds some of the research as do private companies. I don't know how much it is, but I assume that this is a matter of public record. Can anyone find it?


http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...denial-effort/
I found this interesting: "From 2003 to 2007, Koch Affiliated Foundations and the ExxonMobil Foundation were "heavily involved" in funding climate change denial efforts. But Exxon hasn't made a publically traceable contribution since 2008, and Koch's efforts dramatically declined, Brulle said. Coinciding with a decline in traceable funding, Brulle found a dramatic rise in the cash flowing to denial organizations from DonorsTrust, a donor-directed foundation whose funders cannot be traced."


"In all, 140 foundations funneled $558 million to almost 100 climate denial organizations from 2003 to 2010."


They really haven't gotten a good return on this investment.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Off-Topic > General
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Book of Science Police A3n C3G Legacy Library 210 February 10th, 2022 12:02 PM
My science test. scottishlad5 General 22 March 10th, 2009 12:39 AM
Science Help with Polymers Drumline3469 General 10 November 20th, 2007 05:21 PM
Help from science people Drumline3469 General 7 October 11th, 2007 07:25 PM
For Science and Math Geeks Kepler General 21 February 9th, 2007 05:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:53 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.