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  #3313  
Old November 15th, 2008, 12:21 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

I still say it's cut and dry under current law - if you shoot a woman who is 2 weeks pregnant and DOESN'T EVEN KNOW SHES PREGNANT, and she dies, if the coroner discovers that there was a baby inside her the perp is then charged with 2 counts of murder. So, the law recognizes killing an unborn child as murder no matter what the age, unless it's done at the mother's request. This is euthanasia: the purposeful exhaustion of a life that is deemed unworthy. Ridiculous.

EDIT: And I really like the DNA argument, but cancer has it's own DNA and technically could be construed as a life form in the body, but it's not got protected rights.

On a sidenote, with the Chicken DNA...do you find it truly disturbing that the Chicken is the only animal that we eat both before it's born and after it's dead? I'm sticking with my original opinion on abortion = I'm against it because I'm a strict conservationist and I believe that anything you kill, you must eat.

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Last edited by SuperflyTNT; November 15th, 2008 at 12:28 PM.
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  #3314  
Old November 15th, 2008, 12:46 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
I still say it's cut and dry under current law - if you shoot a woman who is 2 weeks pregnant and DOESN'T EVEN KNOW SHES PREGNANT, and she dies, if the coroner discovers that there was a baby inside her the perp is then charged with 2 counts of murder. So, the law recognizes killing an unborn child as murder no matter what the age, unless it's done at the mother's request. This is euthanasia: the purposeful exhaustion of a life that is deemed unworthy. Ridiculous.
And abortion is currently legal too, so the current-law-is-by-definition-correct line of reasoning says that abortion isn't murder.


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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT
On a sidenote, with the Chicken DNA...do you find it truly disturbing that the Chicken is the only animal that we eat both before it's born and after it's dead? I'm sticking with my original opinion on abortion = I'm against it because I'm a strict conservationist and I believe that anything you kill, you must eat.
Ducks too. Do your "conservationist" principles extend to mosquitoes? Roadkill? Enemy combatants? Old dogs that get put down? Trees? These are obviously silly examples, but I am genuinely curious where you set the boundary.
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  #3315  
Old November 15th, 2008, 03:46 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
I'm sticking with my original opinion on abortion = I'm against it because I'm a strict conservationist and I believe that anything you kill, you must eat.
There seems to be a logical conclusion to this line of argument as it relates to abortion, but it is far too disgusting for me to write out.
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  #3316  
Old November 15th, 2008, 03:59 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by jbbnbsmith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
I'm sticking with my original opinion on abortion = I'm against it because I'm a strict conservationist and I believe that anything you kill, you must eat.
There seems to be a logical conclusion to this line of argument as it relates to abortion, but it is far too disgusting for me to write out.
Swift statement.

Last edited by Mr Migraine; November 15th, 2008 at 04:06 PM. Reason: typo
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  #3317  
Old November 15th, 2008, 07:58 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

A few thoughts.

Cancer has its own DNA, but it is a mutation of the DNA of the person with cancer, so I say that that doesn't fly. A zygote (egg + sperm) has the DNA an eventual child will be born with. If DNA defines life then that's when it happens.

I think that if there is going to be any kind of cut off time it should be when the egg is fertilized or about 1 week when the embryo has found it's home in the lining of the uterus. Anything after that is using an arbitrary definition. The only thing after that that I think would be close to not being some arbitrary standard would be once there is a heartbeat at week 3. In the majority of cases the woman might not even be aware that she is pregnant. She would just barely be able to take a home pregnancy test as per instructions.

As for killing pregnant woman=double murder and abortion=legal. This is a case where there is contradiction in the law. This is something that the courts need to address. One or the other needs to go. The more they let it go the worse it gets, IMHO. Any lawyer worth his salt defending a murder suspect in that situation should bring it up.

For Ollie's analogy of the person in the car accident, I think that it as a flawed analogy. I think the only way that analogy would work is the woman who doesn't get to have an abortion would still have that baby delivered. There isn't a way to freeze frame before the accident and get a mulligan. The dodging responsibility is almost unique with abortion. The baby will still be delivered if the woman is not allowed to have the "get out of natural consequences free" card.

The morning after pill was mentioned. It is essentially an extra strength birth control pill. Someone with a pack of birth control pills can easily approximate the effects by taking more than one. If you don't have any problems with birth control pills, then there isn't any reason you should have any problems with the morning after pill.
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  #3318  
Old November 15th, 2008, 08:16 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
On a sidenote, with the Chicken DNA...do you find it truly disturbing that the Chicken is the only animal that we eat both before it's born and after it's dead?
And an omelet with chicken in it is just not right.

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  #3319  
Old November 15th, 2008, 08:32 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Just throwing in my opinion, since I'm bored at work again.

As technology increases, the point at where the child can most likely live outside the mother should be the cut off. If we get to a point where one month into a pregnancy we can put the fetus into a Mason jar and raise him into a normal child, then that's his fair shot. Before that, he is the product of his mother and a part of her body. If she wants to terminate it, then she will either live with the guilt or be fine with it. The child has no personality, no soul, and no idea that it is even alive. And if it does, then we're not talking about even a simple understanding of what is happening in the worst case scenario.

The child isn't "innocent" because that is applying a term that doesn't really apply. It's obviously not guilty either.

It's not an easy decision, and it's not pretty. It should not be treated lightly, but a fetus isn't a baby. It's a chemical reaction.

I believe that greater harm is done to society by forcing someone to have an avoidable life changing experience before she is ready.

And the laws that charge people with two deaths if they kill someone who is pregnant should remain. If you're going to kill a woman, I think it's only fair that you have to play the double-homicide roulette. Not that this will deter any criminals.

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  #3320  
Old November 15th, 2008, 08:41 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by G..G..G-Unit
I believe that greater harm is done to society by forcing someone to have an avoidable life changing experience before she is ready.
I can't believe that you could say that. For or against abortion I can't believe that it's ever morally superior to end the potential of a human being over being inconvenienced. You don't want a dog that pees on the carpet, you take it to the pound. I simply cannot how someone could possibly see abortion as morally superior to adoption.

If you want to whack your kid because you were drunk and horny and can't support it, that's between you and your deity (or lack thereof) of choice, but one cannot in good conscience say that it's better to abort.

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  #3321  
Old November 15th, 2008, 09:10 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by G..G..G-Unit
I believe that greater harm is done to society by forcing someone to have an avoidable life changing experience before she is ready.
I can't believe that you could say that. For or against abortion I can't believe that it's ever morally superior to end the potential of a human being over being inconvenienced. You don't want a dog that pees on the carpet, you take it to the pound. I simply cannot how someone could possibly see abortion as morally superior to adoption.

If you want to whack your kid because you were drunk and horny and can't support it, that's between you and your deity (or lack thereof) of choice, but one cannot in good conscience say that it's better to abort.
The dog analogy doesn't really apply because that is a separate sentient being.

Actually as I write this I may have even changed. It's not important whether or not the child can live outside the body. I'm not quite sure where I stand yet, and I will be building that stance throughout these discussions, but at the moment I am feeling that a woman's freedom to live her life as she chooses is most important.

I never suggested anything like abortion is morally superior or equal to adoption. It is a necessary "evil" so that we have a free society and the fruits that free society bears (unless of course those fruits are harvested early).

A society of people that choose not to have an abortions is better than a society of people who don't have abortions because it is against the law.

To pose an option that I haven't spent lots of time considering, what if the woman is able to have the child delivered instead of carrying it to full term, and by doing so there would be NO developmental problems, physically or psychologically later in life?

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Last edited by Gulp; November 15th, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
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  #3322  
Old November 15th, 2008, 10:37 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Question:

How is a viable fetus any less dependent than a newborn? If both will die if neglegted or damaged physically, how does viability even enter the equation?

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  #3323  
Old November 15th, 2008, 11:06 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Question:

How is a viable fetus any less dependent than a newborn? If both will die if neglected or damaged physically, how does viability even enter the equation?
This is something I tangled with, which is why I changed my opinion away from viability. Eventually you end up with women having an operation where a doctor removes a puddle of goo, and after eight months you end up with a baby grown in a hospital.

This abortion issue is very interesting, and as I said, I'm still trying to figure out where the edges of my reasoning lie. A one month old isn't going to know it's being killed. It doesn't feel right though, and I can definitely see how a religious person could have strong feelings about this (meaning that there is already a good argument that can be built without using religious beliefs; a combo of the two would be very powerful).

If you remove even a secular view of the sanctity of life from the equation, then you start sounding like a cruel futuristic society where fetuses are killed nonchalantly as needed. Perhaps in such a futuristic society there is a completely rational reason for having complete control over reproduction. We're obviously not at such a point yet.

I'm not yet convinced that a 3-week-old fetus has rights that outweigh the mother's, and I'm also not convinced that there's some great vague loss to to society because of it.

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  #3324  
Old November 15th, 2008, 11:56 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

I guess that if you put my strong moral values on erring on the side of life whenever possible aside I can <<sort of>> understand the argument of choice in a free society.

That being said, I guess my largest fear, being the absolute paranoid when it comes to our bloated, intrusive government, is that since it's legal to destroy one's own flesh and blood anyhow, and since technology/knowledge is advancing at such a pace that the wisdom to apply said technology/knowledge is not yet mature, I am worried about 'engineering' the society. With genetic testing becoming cheaper and more effective at determining so many traits I can see a near future where parents will destroy children that do not live up to their standard or have undesirable traits. This could, if systemic and culturally acceptable, literally extinct certain traits, which make us individuals.

That's my 2c...

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