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  #3229  
Old November 13th, 2008, 06:55 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
I posted a bit of the document for illustrative purposes only. It was not meant to be the only part I wanted to reference. There is a ton more in the link I provided.
So, in light of your previous statement:
Quote:
I believe that any church that preaches politics should loose it's tax exempt status.
Do you feel that a Church that has a specific belief that encourages its members to vote in support of that belief should lose it's tax expemt status?

Example: Religion X believes in Doctrine 99. A propostition is made to make Doctrine 99 a criminal offense. The leaders of Religion X say to its membership, "When you vote, don't forget to vote in opposition to the propostion against Doctrine 99." Should they lose tax exemption?
Yes.

Quote:
Another: Religion X believes Act 231 to be a sin. A propostition is made to make Act 231 legal. The leaders of Religion X say to its membership, "When you vote, don't forget to vote in opposition to the propostion supporting Act 231." Should they lose tax exemption?
Yes.

Quote:
and: Religions X, Y, Z and Q believe Act 231 to be a sin. A propostition is made to make Act 231 legal. The leaders of Religions X, Y, Z and Q meet together and say we all believe in the same thing in this regard, let us work together to encourage people to vote in oposition to this. The leaders of Religions X, Y, Z and Q then say to their memberships, "When you vote, don't forget to vote in opposition to the propostion supporting Act 231." Should they lose tax exemption?
Yes.
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  #3230  
Old November 13th, 2008, 06:58 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
I posted a bit of the document for illustrative purposes only. It was not meant to be the only part I wanted to reference. There is a ton more in the link I provided.
So, in light of your previous statement:
Quote:
I believe that any church that preaches politics should loose it's tax exempt status.
Do you feel that a Church that has a specific belief that encourages its members to vote in support of that belief should lose it's tax expemt status?
To put it more directly, would any church reading from the Book of Romans (which speaks out against homosexual activity) lose it's tax exempt status? I mean come on... nowadays, almost anything and everything could be considered "politics." From sexual orientation, to the lives of babies, etc...
Not unless the specifically talked about voting on an particular issue. They are free to talk about whatever they want. But when they try to influence government directly, the privilege of not paying taxes is gone.
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  #3231  
Old November 13th, 2008, 07:31 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
Yes.
OK, How about saying, "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote"? Is that trying to influence the government? They know that their membership is likely to vote in line with their beliefs.

And, so by extention: "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote and remind you to pay close attention to the issues of the day."?

Or: "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote and remind you to pay close attention to the issues of the day, you know many (or one) of them is in direct opposite of our beliefs."?

Is any of these acceptable to you? Where is the line drawn?
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  #3232  
Old November 13th, 2008, 07:45 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
Yes.
OK, How about saying, "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote"? Is that trying to influence the government? They know that their membership is likely to vote in line with their beliefs.

And, so by extention: "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote and remind you to pay close attention to the issues of the day."?

Or: "We encourage you to perform your civic duty and vote and remind you to pay close attention to the issues of the day, you know many (or one) of them is in direct opposite of our beliefs."?

Is any of these acceptable to you? Where is the line drawn?
Just don't be specific and don't expect the government to follow a single church's doctrine. That should do it.
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  #3233  
Old November 13th, 2008, 08:02 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

WOW!! First of all, a wonderful and intelligent read, from everyone. I appreciate the civility of this discussion, especially over such a heated topic. Secondly, I am sorry if this throws the discussion "backwards." It is amazing that in the 11 hours I was at work today that nearly 5 pages have been added to this discussion.

Quote:
obsidianguard,

Again, I am finding this discussion quite thought-provoking. Do you think it is possible that one of the reasons that the founding fathers were so able to forge agreements is because they held essentially similar moral (and pehaps religious) views? When the preamble to the Constitution mentions man as a created being endowed by his Creator with certain rights haven't we already gone far beyond anything that Americans could agree upon today?

~Aldin, caught up in the whirlwind
Two things I find interesting:
Matthew 22:21 Jesus states "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars's and to God what is God's." This statement sparked discussion on its interpretation even then. Granted, the context was concerning taxes and the legality of paying taxes. The implication, however, is that Jesus himself advocated a sort of "separation of church and state." It was right to follow man's laws, this implies, but work for God's kingdom. The Jehova's Witnesses, for example, believe this, but they abstain from voting in elections, or participating in politics.
Relating this to the beliefs of the Founding Father's then, even if they were spiritual (an the majority of them were) it would not be incongruous morally or spiritually to leave political discussions separate from religion. They all feared the imposition of one belief on the people. This tradition streches back to the English migration to America in response to the Reformation, the rise of the Anglican Church (a separate event from the Reformation), and the Anglican/Catholic/Protestant power struggle. All three groups professed their Christianity, yet bowed to the basest of human behavior in torturing and killing those who did not agree with their brand of Christianity. For the Founding Fathers the discussion was moral, and not religious; it is morally wrong to literally force one's beliefs on another.
When the decision was made to break away from Britain, the Declaration of Independence cited (in the highlighted portion of the quote) the unalianable rights of the people endowed by their Creator. This wording was deliberate. They could have said God, or Yahweh, or Muhammad, but they did not. They specifically said "their Creator."

Two: Today, G.W. Bush gave a speech discussing the necessity of a Democracy to promote religious freedom and tolerance. I have to agree. Only in a country where the people value "values" and morality can a tolerant populus exist. Again I feel like the central discussion lies in the fight over whose values are "right." I think the simple answer is that as long as we all value what is moral (i.e. no killing , harming, or oppressing others) then it matters little (in the political arena) what people value spiritually.

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  #3234  
Old November 13th, 2008, 08:08 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

My church, a PCA church (offshoot of the more well-known PCUSA of which Revdyer is a clergyman), did not say anything about a particular candidate or act/amendment. Our pastor did, however, say to vote according to what would please and honor God. And we could all tell what that meant: "Yes" to the protection of marriage amendment.
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  #3235  
Old November 13th, 2008, 08:16 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
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Originally Posted by Gulp View Post
Just some info regarding the Founding Fathers:

Most of the Founding Fathers were indeed Christian. 49 out of the 74 were Protestant, 3 were Catholic, and the other 22 were not Christians. The most prominent ones were anti-organized religion (Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Washington). If each person wrote his beliefs into it, The Constitution would, by logic, be about 30% non-religious, and this doesn't include that we know the above-mentioned famous drafters may have had large roles in constructing the Constitution.

Source is Wikipedia.
Not sure about that. The site GB linked seems awfully well researched and comes to a far different conclusion. May I recommend you take a peek?

~Aldin, who needs some time to think about Raudulfr's post before addressing it
I totally missed that link the first time. Thanks.

Well, the important ones were deists!

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  #3236  
Old November 13th, 2008, 09:44 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Could someone please explain to me why churches even have tax exempt status, and why it is important? Thanks.

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  #3237  
Old November 13th, 2008, 10:09 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Could someone please explain to me why churches even have tax exempt status, and why it is important? Thanks.
They are nonprofit organizations.
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  #3238  
Old November 13th, 2008, 10:47 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
That's why I'm for term limits. These guys get so entrenched in Washington politics they forget to represent the people, which is their job.

One of the things that drives me nuts is when I hear pundits/people say that we need leaders. I don't want leaders, I want representatives.

I've heard it said like this: Instead of a politician starting a parade and expecting people to follow his/her lead, we should start the parade and then the politician will see it and get in front of it. We lead, he/she makes it happen.
I once heard a proposal on how to select House representatives... What if we drafted them from the district? You get the $165K/year for one term and can re-up for one term. No one goes more than 4 years.

One thing's for sure, the House would be a much more interesting thing to watch!

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  #3239  
Old November 13th, 2008, 10:49 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

So when Joel Osteen is richer than God, that's nonprofit? Seems like a pretty solid business to me.

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  #3240  
Old November 13th, 2008, 10:57 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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So when Joel Osteen is richer than God, that's nonprofit? Seems like a pretty solid business to me.
God's teeth and hair are not as nice as Joel's though.
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