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  #3169  
Old November 12th, 2008, 05:10 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Cons? Seriously, get over the tired "Party Affiliation Blues". We're AMERICANS, and I am not a CON, or a LIB. I'm an AMERICAN.

I am concerned about both, but the VOTER FRAUD perpetrated on a systemic level becomes a huge issue. Look at Minnesota - Franken-stein is probably going to steal that based on 'mystery votes' that TO A VOTE all come out for him, and in the 9 disricts that have had the 'mystery votes' come up mysteriously in 9 precincts there are more of them than in the other 5000 precincts in the state.

That, my friend, is why voter fraud is important, regardless of which party wins. I want a level playing field with lots of oversight from nonpartisans, and I want every vote to count REGARDLESS of the outcome. If these elections continue to become court cases and fraud expose stories it will completely undermine the election system and undoubtedly crumble our democratic republic.

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  #3170  
Old November 12th, 2008, 05:27 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

I think the 'con' thing was a response to the 'lib' crack three posts before it. I haven't observed Radulfr trying to be divisive, for the most part. That 'lib' line irritated me, too, and I'm not really thrilled about any kind of fraud, whether perpetrated by the voters or the administrators.

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  #3171  
Old November 12th, 2008, 06:10 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

IMax is right, it was in response to tj.

I get your point TNT. But then you blow it for me by using the typical NeoCon attack method of calling Al Franken 'Frankenstein'.

Did you think for a minute the the 'mystery votes' that are turning up for Franken might have been flipped from the beginning? Is that even a possibility for you to consider?

And, if you don't mind, cite one single case of a prosecuted case of voter fraud. One.

And for the record, I am a proud Liberal/Progressive American. I will not allow the bullies of the right to demonize my political leaning. Because it is not evil. In fact, I think it is more in line with the founding fathers original intent for this nation than the "christian/conservative" movement.
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  #3172  
Old November 12th, 2008, 06:27 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
I think it is more in line with the founding fathers original intent for this nation than the "christian/conservative" movement.
That is such a thought provoking statement that I have to ask - which of the platforms seen as traditional divides between liberals and conservatives do you perceive such that the liberal perspective would be more in line with the founding fathers original intent than the conservative perspective?

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  #3173  
Old November 12th, 2008, 07:10 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Yeah, what he said, I wanna hear this. (Fezzik puts his "Founding Fathers" 'coon skin cap on)

P.S.--If a hack like Franken wins, I very well might head back overseas. Seriously, people, he's not even funny. What's next, Carrot Top for the Supreme Court? Min., act like you've got some damned sense, wouldja?

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  #3174  
Old November 12th, 2008, 08:49 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

I've been with a client for the past hour, so I haven't had time to follow up. I'll do that in the morning if you all can wait. I'm sure I'll write lots of stuff for you guys to tear apart!
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  #3175  
Old November 12th, 2008, 10:39 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
I think it is more in line with the founding fathers original intent for this nation than the "christian/conservative" movement.
That is such a thought provoking statement that I have to ask - which of the platforms seen as traditional divides between liberals and conservatives do you perceive such that the liberal perspective would be more in line with the founding fathers original intent than the conservative perspective?

~Aldin, curiously
In actuality, I'm sure that the founding fathers were much like us. A culture of blended beliefs and ideals. I'm not even sure that the pendulum swing of modern politics, that results in leaders who are either far left or far right, accurately represents America (which last statistics I saw showed that we are overwhelmingly moderate). I guess what I am saying is that I do not believe that our founding fathers would fall into either of these polarized categories..


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  #3176  
Old November 12th, 2008, 11:06 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Hey, I call that buffoon Franken Frankenstein because he is a POS, period. If he was as republican as they come I'd say the same thing. I hate that puke and I wish harm to come to him. He's not funny anymore, although 20 years back he was a great writer, and I am pretty much completely disgusted by the letch. I got turned off to him with his very hateful diatribes on Air America....guy was a real America's The Worst Thing Ever proponent, and my friends and family have died to defend her, so that pi$$ed me off.

Here's a nice story from the Wall Street Journal (Via the Associated Press...) to sum up why we can pretty much KNOW that the democrats are stealing the seat in Minnesota, or at best TRYING to:

You'd think Democrats would be content with last week's electoral rout. But judging from the odd doings in Minnesota, some in their party wouldn't mind adding to their jackpot by stealing a Senate seat for left-wing joker Al Franken.


AP
Al Franken.
When Minnesotans woke up last Wednesday, Republican Senator Norm Coleman led Mr. Franken by 725 votes. By that evening, he was ahead by only 477. As of yesterday, Mr. Coleman's margin stood at 206. This lopsided bleeding of Republican votes is passing strange considering that the official recount hasn't even begun.

The vanishing Coleman vote came during a week in which election officials are obliged to double-check their initial results. Minnesota is required to do these audits, and it isn't unusual for officials to report that they transposed a number here or there. In a normal audit, these mistakes could be expected to cut both ways. Instead, nearly every "fix" has gone for Mr. Franken, in some cases under strange circumstances.

For example, there was Friday night's announcement by Minneapolis's director of elections that she'd forgotten to count 32 absentee ballots in her car. The Coleman campaign scrambled to get a county judge to halt the counting of these absentees, since it was impossible to prove their integrity 72 hours after the polls closed. The judge refused on grounds that she lacked jurisdiction.

Up in Two Harbors, another liberal outpost, Mr. Franken picked up an additional 246 votes. In Partridge Township, he racked up another 100. Election officials in both places claim they initially miscommunicated the numbers. Odd, because in the Two Harbors precinct, none of the other contests recorded any changes in their vote totals.

According to conservative statistician John Lott, Mr. Franken's gains so far are 2.5 times the corrections made for Barack Obama in the state, and nearly three times the gains for Democrats across Minnesota Congressional races. Mr. Lott notes that Mr. Franken's "new" votes equal more than all the changes for all the precincts in the entire state for the Presidential, Congressional and statehouse races combined (482 votes).
This entire process is being overseen by Democratic Secretary of State Mark Ritchie, who isn't exactly a nonpartisan observer. One of Mr. Ritchie's financial supporters during his 2006 run for office was a 527 group called the Secretary of State Project, which was co-founded by James Rucker, who came from MoveOn.org. The group says it is devoted to putting Democrats in jobs where they can "protect elections."

Mr. Ritchie is also an ally of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or Acorn, of fraudulent voter-registration fame. That relationship might explain why prior to the election Mr. Ritchie waved off evidence of thousands of irregularities on Minnesota voter rolls, claiming that accusations of fraud were nothing more than "desperateness" from Republicans.

– Jennifer MarsicoMr. Franken and fellow Democrats are already waging a full-scale public pressure campaign to help turn the recount their way. That includes a push to turn what should be a straightforward count of existing legal ballots into a complete do-over -- mau-mauing election officials into accepting tossed ballots. The Franken campaign recently showed up before the Hennepin County canvassing board, demanding that its liberal members count 461 previously rejected ballots. To the board's credit, they unanimously voted no.

The Franken campaign has also been wrapping itself around Barack Obama's popularity to increase its recount potential. Minnesota has a voter intent law, which means that election officials can take a second look at ambiguous ballots. Mr. Franken's people are already arguing that a vote for Mr. Obama certainly indicated a vote for Mr. Franken. This can't possibly be true, however, because nearly every campaign poll showed Mr. Franken lagging Mr. Obama by five to 15 percentage points -- and on Election Day he trailed by 12.2%. Mr. Franken ran a nasty, polarizing campaign, and in any case he was part of a three-man contest.

The Coleman team is demanding the tapes from the voting machines on election night, and that's the least Mr. Ritchie can do. The Secretary of State should also investigate miraculous discoveries like the "forgotten" 32 car ballots. He needs to show voters, the press and the Coleman team that he's running a transparent process that focuses on previously counted votes, rather than changing the rules after the election is over.

With their party only three Senate seats from the 60 needed to break a filibuster (and two still not decided), Democrats have a political incentive to cut corners to steal a seat if they can get away with it. Mr. Franken and his left-wing allies also know that if Mr. Franken couldn't win election in this fabulous Democratic year, then the not-so-funnyman never will. If Minnesota wants to retain its reputation as a state with clean elections, it needs to run an honest recount.


So, that being said amigo, I have NO doubt that this is a power grab and someone should go to prison.

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  #3177  
Old November 12th, 2008, 11:53 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
In fact, I think it is more in line with the founding fathers original intent for this nation than the "christian/conservative" movement.
The founding fathers were a very diverse group of individuals. Their beliefs were, as Grungebob pointed out, blended. However, the main idea that divided them was big government versus individual states rights, with minimal intervention from the government. This division played out in the creation of the Federalists (big government) and the Anti-Federalists (the Democratic-Republicans; favoring small central government). They were polarized, and this division has not gone away. The two main players was Thomas Jefferson (Anti-Federalist) and Alexander Hamilton (Federalist). They fought over everything, including the creation of a National Bank. It was this struggle that gave us the Bill of Rights. The Federalists approved the Constitution, but the Anti's wanted a guarantee of certain protections, otherwise, they refused to ratify it. This division carried the US into the Civil War 80 years later. We are still seeing this split today, although the conservative and liberal philosophies have crept into the party system.
The point is that this division is a good thing, as long as we continue to listen and compromise. This is the main difference between the Founding Fathers and our society today. They could disagree, but come to an agreement that satisfied basic needs of both sides, or of neither side. The Constitution is a patchwork of compromises made between various "sides." Orginally, the divsion of conservative and liberal was simply "big government to advance social equality" versus "little government to promote individual freedom." Today, we have added the dimensions of religion (something our Founding Fathers would not have approved of in a discussion on government), morals, and what it means to be a "real American." It is this ideology that divides us today, and really gets us nowhere.

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  #3178  
Old November 13th, 2008, 07:42 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
IMax is right, it was in response to tj.
Saying 'libs' was not a wise crack. I am just too lazy to type liberal. From reading the responses from the ones against needing some sort of ID to vote I assumed (new here maybe that was a mistake) that they were liberals.

So letís start over. Why is the first response to ďletís make voters show some sort of ID to voteĒ negative and should not even be considered. Sorry, I just donít get it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
And, if you don't mind, cite one single case of a prosecuted case of voter fraud. One.
Just use and you will find lots of examples.

1) 1997 Primary Mayoral Election, Miami, Florida - Absentee ballot fraud
2) Civil Rights Leader Gets Jail Term for Voter Fraud, N.Y. Times, June 6, 1999.

3) here is one but techinaclly I guess I can't use it
In 1985, Spiver Gordon, who would emerge as a key player in the 1994 fraud, was convicted by a jury of absentee ballot fraud. Although the Eleventh Cir­cuit Court of Appeals found "that there was suffi­cient evidence to support Spiver Whitney Gordon's convictions for mail fraud arising from the mailing of fraudulently marked absentee ballots," his con­victions were reversed after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the federal mail fraud statute under which he had been convicted could be used only for schemes involving the deprivation of money or property, not elections.



Hopefully there will be one in Minnesota. I am sorry. She found ballots in her car 2 days later. That alone should be grounds for resignation.
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  #3179  
Old November 13th, 2008, 09:26 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjheroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
And, if you don't mind, cite one single case of a prosecuted case of voter fraud. One.
Just use and you will find lots of examples.

1) 1997 Primary Mayoral Election, Miami, Florida - Absentee ballot fraud
2) Civil Rights Leader Gets Jail Term for Voter Fraud, N.Y. Times, June 6, 1999.

3) here is one but techinaclly I guess I can't use it
In 1985, Spiver Gordon, who would emerge as a key player in the 1994 fraud, was convicted by a jury of absentee ballot fraud. Although the Eleventh Cir*cuit Court of Appeals found "that there was suffi*cient evidence to support Spiver Whitney Gordon's convictions for mail fraud arising from the mailing of fraudulently marked absentee ballots," his con*victions were reversed after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the federal mail fraud statute under which he had been convicted could be used only for schemes involving the deprivation of money or property, not elections.

Hopefully there will be one in Minnesota. I am sorry. She found ballots in her car 2 days later. That alone should be grounds for resignation.
OH, and don't forget that 13 workers for Obama wrote the Ohio Secy of State to have their absentee ballots disqualified... seems that they're residents of other states... oh yea, no conviction since they voluntarily asked the votes to not be counted. If I was Secretary of State, I would have prosecuted them anyway! They signed the absentee ballot and therefore committed a felony.

So lay off the "it never happens" mantra... no one here is that naive!

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  #3180  
Old November 13th, 2008, 09:51 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjheroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
IMax is right, it was in response to tj.
Saying 'libs' was not a wise crack. I am just too lazy to type liberal. From reading the responses from the ones against needing some sort of ID to vote I assumed (new here maybe that was a mistake) that they were liberals.
You're new here, so you get a pass on this one. But one semi-spoken rule we're trying to follow, to promote intelligent debate and a lack of rancor, is that we're doing what we can to avoid an 'us versus them' mentality. It doesn't always work, and so this thread has helped me add like four or five people to my ignore list, but it has also allowed us to have some really excellent discussions between people who would normally have been political opposites, and we've found a lot of common ground. That common ground has allowed us to explore several hot-button topics that would otherwise have devolved into insults with no gain for anyone.

Also, I'm not ignoring your next statement - I appreciate that you saw the issue and restated your question to remove the partisan slant.

Welcome to the site, in case nobody has welcomed you yet. And welcome to the world's most awesome political discussion thread.

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