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  #3073  
Old November 9th, 2008, 10:41 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by skyknight View Post
You know I disagree with this one....while I will admit that insurance costs are getting tougher and tougher I will also say there are alot more options out there right now. For example...your idea that a large sickness is going to destroy a small business...there are insurances out there right now that are much cheaper because they do not cover head colds and such....they are disaster insurances and only kick in when something major happens...and they are much much cheaper.

I am not about having my taxes raised up so everyone can have the same healthcare....perhaps an option or something then....you have your choice as a citizen....pay a massive amount of tax or continue on with your own private insurance if you like that better. The folks who want that national healthcare gig can get together and fund it themselves...just leave me alone on it please...I will choose to skip it thank you. Just like social security I have no idea why I have to be forced to pay into programs I do not want to pay for nor do I want to recieve. Roads, infrastructure, education are their for the entire society as is the military....retirement money and healthcare are individual needs that people want funded by the Governement in these situations. While my children are in school why can't I have my tax money to fund them in private "Christian" schools and then when they are done then pay taxes into the public coffers.


I am fed up with everyone telling me I have to have Government take care of everything for me because I am incapable to manage my own family. If the people who wanted these sorts of things would just get together and say, hey everyone who wants these options check the box...the rest of you can do what you want, it would be fine. But its not that way, I am expected to join the government juggernaut everyone wants to create as a safety net. What this country needs right now is a whole lot less Governement...not more.
Just because some of us want health care reform doesn't mean we want the government to provide it for us, or build a socialized system. I just want things to be like they were when I was a kid. Back then insurance wasn't an absolute necessity to prevent economic disaster in a household for fear of huge medical bills. Medical bills were reasonable so a family could suffer a catastrophic illness without insurance and survive financially. That's not the case anymore and it is because of the insurance companies, drug companies, and the medical industry's greedy tug of war, and our citizens are the pawns. Why anybody would prop our greed driven system up as ideal is beyond me.

We need to have everybody covered or have low cost care, so that an unforseen medical illness doesn't put folks in the poor house or worse..

We need low cost low deductible insurance that is available to all, even those that (like myself) do not work in corporate America.

In Texas, all drivers have insurance. Why? because the insurance companies are told that if they want to practice insurance in Texas, they must each take a turn blindly pulling a name out of a hat of an individual that is low income etc. and they must provide insurance for that individual at a state approved lower rate.

I propose they do something similar with health insurance:

If you do not work for a corporation, you can still join a network. The cost of insurance in this network is lower (just like being in a group) but comprehensive. If you choose to be in this program, your name goes into the pool and whatever insurance company happens to pick your name is the one that you must go with. All insurance companies must participate to share the burden. The government is only involved in that they enforce this system similar to the auto insurance.


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  #3074  
Old November 9th, 2008, 11:18 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Now you see Grunge...obviously we would need to work out the details but I am on board of finding something better than the current system. I am not sure nationalized health care is the solution though. As far as propping up the current system...it has some major flaws I agree and it is getting worse, but I am not about exchanging one semi-broke system for another one. If someone comes up with a better idea than we all get health care and we are gonna tax the **** outta people who can afford it then I am 100% on board.

The only thing that does concern me a bit about the low income proposal is this though. President Clinton told the loan agencies that they needed to make loans more readily available to low income families. That is part of the reason we just watched our loan companies crumble into ashes...forced legislation combined with some greed on their parts. We need to make sure the same thing does not happen in the medical world.
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  #3075  
Old November 9th, 2008, 11:26 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyknight View Post
The only thing that does concern me a bit about the low income proposal is this though. President Clinton told the loan agencies that they needed to make loans more readily available to low income families. That is part of the reason we just watched our loan companies crumble into ashes...forced legislation combined with some greed on their parts. We need to make sure the same thing does not happen in the medical world.
See now the problem wasn't the noble idea in the beginning, the problem was with greed, lack of ethics, and most importantly, lack of supervision, that encroached on the system over the past eight years. Somebody was asleep at the wheel.


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  #3076  
Old November 9th, 2008, 11:59 AM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Sky, I know how much you hate the idea of having the government offer you things. So to make sure you're consistent, why aren't you trying to opt out of the following:

police protection
fire department protection
water, sewer and garbage service (depending on where you are)
library services
public school

Because all those things are socialized, and we don't seem to raise up in arms about them. We have the government controlling all those programs, and have not, thus far, been driven to a Communist state. The Red Menace has not overwhelmed us, despite our willingness to give in to Marxist socialism.

Oh, and just having health insurance is NOT the answer. It's probably as good as our greed-driven, corporate-owned, paid-off, fear-motivated, sickeningly corrupt nation is going to do, but just having insurance does not guarantee that you'll receive the medical care you need. There are people - trained medical professionals - whose job it is to make sure you don't get the care you need. They work for the insurance companies, and get a bonus if they can figure out how not to pay for your medical care.

Insurance companies don't cover preventive care, either. One of the reasons our country has a shorter life span than countries like England or Canada is that in those countries, somebody actually makes more money if you get medical help that makes you healthier. In our country, we have no such advocates for the patients. Instead, we have people whose job it is to make sure you DON'T seek preventive care.

Of course, Sky, you probably don't have anything to worry about when it comes to universal health care. You're right in line with the HMOs and drug companies, and they have bills of sale for nearly everyone involved in the decision-making process. As long as you stay on the side that oppresses, destroys and often kills in the name of corporate profit, you should be on the winning side. I wouldn't be particularly proud of that position, but at least you can hold onto the win until enough of us stand up and claim what is, in my opinion, a basic human right.

And here's my closer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If you can find a more American document than the Declaration of Independence, I don't know about it. And I don't think it's vague - Life is listed as the first unalienable right. If you can't get the health care you need to live because you can't afford it and the insurance company won't pay, and then you die, you have been deprived of one of your unalienable rights so that someone else can make money.

I've been told I'm a socialist, terrorist-loving, unpatriotic villain because I opposed Bush for the most of the last eight years. Well, if it's a good enough blunt instrument for a Republican, it's good enough for me.

HMOs, and those that support them, and those that would do anything to deprive any citizen of the care he needs, are unAmerican. If you don't feel an overwhelming disgust at the way people in this country are allowed to sicken and die for the bottom line, you have no right to call yourself a patriot. No American should be willing to allow the denial of the first unalienable right.

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  #3077  
Old November 9th, 2008, 01:03 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post
Sky, I know how much you hate the idea of having the government offer you things. So to make sure you're consistent, why aren't you trying to opt out of the following:

police protection

As I stated before, betterment of a society is different than worrying about your own needs.

fire department protection

We have a volunter fire department that does just fine

water, sewer and garbage service (depending on where you are)

I have a well and a septic system and I take my garbage to a dumpster

library services

We as a community support our library, again though this is better for all...not just an individual.

public school

Couldn't agree more with you on this one

And as for the quote...well nowhere does it say that you have a right to life by taking from others. As a matter of fact that same document says I have a right to own what I work for...nowhere does it say that I need to pay into a system so I can make sure everyone can get tylenol. If you want such a literal translation of that document to include health care then perhaps you also need to include the part of all men!!!!

You as a person owe every penny you make Imax according to your own quote to ensure EVERY single person gets health care around the world. And if that takes every penny you own or earn then so be it....because what right do you have to exist when people in Rowanda are lacking care...none. All men...not just Americans.

I just want to make sure I get this straight....

First off we force people into medical school so they can take care of you. Because if there are no doctors or not enough there is no health care and that is a basic right that you are entitled to. Stop me if I am wrong.

Second, if you cannot afford it then others must be willing to step up and pay it no matter what so they do not stomp on your rights, especially the right you have to their pocketbooks. Still looking for that one in the Declaration.

Thirdly...if we are going to place so much on those lines and make them read as we want then I have the right to happiness....hapiness for me is to not have to work another day while you serve me cocktails in a maid's outfit all day long on your dime. Who are you to deny me my basic rights...

Unamerican, I don't think so....I am a firm believer in the American belief that all men are created equal and therefore we all have an opportunity to do what we will with our lives. I do not work because I enjoy it...I work to take care of my family...and if that means I work for a corporation and not for myself because of my own desire not to have a boss, then that is a choice I make. We all must make choices and we all must be willing to face the results of those choices...just as it is not up to us to bail out large corporations when they fail because of bad economic choices it is also not up to me to bail out every individual around the world because of their choices either. At some point personal responsibility needs to come into play...

Last edited by skyknight; November 9th, 2008 at 01:12 PM.
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  #3078  
Old November 9th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

As I'm about to head out, I'll just add a little (for now) regarding healthcare.

Last weekend I did some work at a doctor friend's house. He's not just some random doctor, he's the head of the emergency room at a local hospital (not the one I work at now), he's on the SWAT team and he's one of the doctors that treats inmates at the county jail. Anyway, after Obama was elected, I asked this doctor if he was concerned about the quality of healthcare under Obama. He said "no". Though, he didn't want us to model our system after Canada's because it isn't all that good. A Catscan in Canada could take a year to get into whereas here you can get into one in 24 hrs usually. He said the major thing with healthcare is to keep the costs down, specifically drugs/meds. As an example, he told me that a drug company will sell med to Europe for $.10/pill and sell the same med to the U.S. for $4/pill. Their (drug company) excuse/reason is that we (U.S.) can afford it. Sorry, but that's just one example of what I'm sure are thousands that keep our healthcare costs up.

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  #3079  
Old November 9th, 2008, 01:27 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Just to play devil's advocate, here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post
Sky, I know how much you hate the idea of having the government offer you things. So to make sure you're consistent, why aren't you trying to opt out of the following:

police protection
fire department protection
water, sewer and garbage service (depending on where you are)
library services
public school
C'mon, IMax, you know thats a bit of a spurious argument. The first is easily seen to be an extention of the primary role of government, protection from the acts of those who would deprive us of our life or property without any sort of due process. The second exists to protect that same property from misadventure which the individual couldn't hope to combat effectively, as well as to protect those who had nothing to do with the original loss of property via the spread of the fire. The third, as you say, isn't even consistant since it depends upon the area in which you live. The library system in America was originally started as a public enterprise via the donations of large sums of money from the very rich and was taken over by various state entities later*. Finally, a large number of parents are opting out of the public school system via home schooling, private schools, and via political support for vouchers, charters, and magnet schools.

*This isn't exactly 100% correct, as a quick visit to Wikipedia will tell you, but the public library system as we know it today did get the majority of its funding from private donations...Carnagie alone gave massive amounts of cash to create 'em, for example.

Quote:
Insurance companies don't cover preventive care, either. One of the reasons our country has a shorter life span than countries like England or Canada is that in those countries, somebody actually makes more money if you get medical help that makes you healthier. In our country, we have no such advocates for the patients. Instead, we have people whose job it is to make sure you DON'T seek preventive care.
They don't? I can go and have a check up/physical and just pay my co-pay; if something is wrong in my bloodwork won't it be detected? Isn't that preventative? If I've been feeling under the weather for a few weeks can't I go to the doctor and get checked out, finding out if something is wrong?

Quote:
Of course, Sky, you probably don't have anything to worry about when it comes to universal health care. You're right in line with the HMOs and drug companies, and they have bills of sale for nearly everyone involved in the decision-making process. As long as you stay on the side that oppresses, destroys and often kills in the name of corporate profit, you should be on the winning side. I wouldn't be particularly proud of that position, but at least you can hold onto the win until enough of us stand up and claim what is, in my opinion, a basic human right.
Given my earlier analysis of what the difference between an unalienable right and an alienable right, I'd really love to hear your thought process here. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just curious to hear how you came to that decision. Do you mind expanding on it, please?

Quote:
And here's my closer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If you can find a more American document than the Declaration of Independence, I don't know about it.
I'm not trying to be an intellegent donkey here, but how about the Constitution of the U.S.? The Declaration has absolutely zero weight behind it when it comes to deciding the legal action that the government is able to take in regards to what it provides for its citizens.

I understand what you mean, though--the Declaration of Independence is surely the "soul" of our nation, if not its brain. Still, be careful in using it to decide public policy, since one could easily turn that line of reasoning to other avenues...

Quote:
And I don't think it's vague - Life is listed as the first unalienable right.
Here, for example. Using this line, and the fact that it is provided first, gives a slam-dunk argument against legal abortion. In short, life is presented first and thus supercedes all other ideas. Without life you can't have liberty or happiness, and so all life is sacred, especially that which will carry on the ideas presented in the document, those of generations unborn. Now we just have to squable over when life begins. [editor's note--I don't buy this line of reasoning, but I have heard it a few times.]

Quote:
If you can't get the health care you need to live because you can't afford it and the insurance company won't pay, and then you die, you have been deprived of one of your unalienable rights so that someone else can make money.
There are a few flaws here, I think. First, you're going to die at some point anyway--the creator who grants you those unalienable rights is going to take that right away. Secondly, there are a host of things that the government doesn't provide that could also deprive you of that life...at what point does the State's responsibility end? Finally, you assume that insurance coverage will keep you alive, but there are a host of things that will kill you regardless of the quality of care you recieve; in many cases, the best medicine can do is make your death as painless as possible.

Quote:
I've been told I'm a socialist, terrorist-loving, unpatriotic villain because I opposed Bush for the most of the last eight years.
You are all those things and more, but not because you opposed Bush.

As to your final argument, I know you don't mean all those mean things you said since everyone knows you are the most cuddly, unabrasive, and tender guy to ever snatch a dice-tower from a jerk at Gen-con, so I left it out. The thing is, when I watched Sicko I felt the exact same way you did (about the 1st half of the film...the second half was far left communist-kissing garbage) but I remembered that all propoganda is set up to work completely upon the emotions of its audience. I took a step back, calmed down, and realized that what Moore wants is for the mob to be so angry about what doesn't work well in our system that we mindlessly tear it all down in favor of what he considers to be a better system, regardless of the enherent flaws in that system.

I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the U.S. health system, though. What we need is to look at what works in other countries, what works here, and then pick and choose what to keep and what to jetisen. Next, we have to figure out what are the responsibilities of individual citizens in the provision of their own health. Third, decide the extent of governmental intrusion we are comfortable with for those aspects of health care that a responsible individual couldn't provide himself, as well as how much of that governmental control could instead be diverted to an oversight role for private corporaations. Next, how do we pay for whatever jigsaw puzzle we've pieced together? And then, finally, god help us, we've got to get the government to put it all in place without screwing it up so badly that it is an even worse system than we have today!

You are the brute squad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grishnakh finally
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  #3080  
Old November 9th, 2008, 01:44 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fezzikthedoor View Post
I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the U.S. health system, though. What we need is to look at what works in other countries, what works here, and then pick and choose what to keep and what to jetisen. Next, we have to figure out what are the responsibilities of individual citizens in the provision of their own health. Third, decide the extent of governmental intrusion we are comfortable with for those aspects of health care that a responsible individual couldn't provide himself, as well as how much of that governmental control could instead be diverted to an oversight role for private corporaations. Next, how do we pay for whatever jigsaw puzzle we've pieced together? And then, finally, god help us, we've got to get the government to put it all in place without screwing it up so badly that it is an even worse system than we have today!
Brother, you figure that out and I will gladly reconsider my stance in a heartbeat.


I am not really sure how I get to be the bad guy in this when this is what I want...

to be left alone
to keep what I earn unless I choose to give it away..
to not take any handouts from anyone..
to ensure my family is taken care of by me and no one else since they are my responisibility...

Why is that bad? I am not a burden on anyone else, I am producing a family that will better society by myself...and yet I am a sleezeball for not standing with my hand open in front of the Whitehouse.

I have never asked for anything and I hope I never will. I paid for my own college as I worked through it and repaid my loans, I refuse WICC while I was in the service because I'll provide milk and diapers for my kids even if I have to give up things that I want. And my family is pretty well self reliant...someone tell me how that is bad please?
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  #3081  
Old November 9th, 2008, 02:39 PM
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InfinityMax InfinityMax is offline
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyknight View Post
As a matter of fact that same document says I have a right to own what I work for...nowhere does it say that I need to pay into a system so I can make sure everyone can get tylenol. If you want such a literal translation of that document to include health care then perhaps you also need to include the part of all men!!!!
So who pays for our police protection? If I never get robbed, assaulted, shot or stabbed, should I not be able to get back my tax money because I don't want to pay for someone else's protection? If I want to hire my own staff of armed protection, can I just decide to not pay the taxes that would have gone to the police? I have four big dogs, and nobody in their right mind would break into my house. That's a lot like having health insurance, only a lot more reliable. Since I provide for my own safety, can I opt out of police protection, and the taxes associated with that?

Quote:
You as a person owe every penny you make Imax according to your own quote to ensure EVERY single person gets health care around the world.
I'll pay if you will. Keeping third-world countries from getting AIDS, ebola and malaria seems like a good place to send my money. I'll match you dollar for dollar.

Quote:
And if that takes every penny you own or earn then so be it....because what right do you have to exist when people in Rowanda are lacking care...none. All men...not just Americans.
I agree. I donate a whole boatload of money to world charities every month because I think you're right. You're pushing your argument to a comical extreme with your 'every penny you own' line, but you're still not that far off.

Furthermore, your Uncle Sam agrees with me. Part of your taxes pay for international relief. UN troops? Yeah, you pay those guys. Do you have any idea how much money we give to foreign nations every year? We give money to people who don't even like us.

Quote:
First off we force people into medical school so they can take care of you. Because if there are no doctors or not enough there is no health care and that is a basic right that you are entitled to. Stop me if I am wrong.
OK, stop. Do the Canadians force people to go to med school? Do the English? Or the French? Or the Norwegians? Those are rhetorical, because you know the answer - they don't. Those doctors in those countries still make good money. Nobody forces them to go to med school. Nobody has to - they just pay them. Continued comical extremes, only now, they're more comical and more extreme, to the point of complete absurdity.

Quote:
Second, if you cannot afford it then others must be willing to step up and pay it no matter what so they do not stomp on your rights, especially the right you have to their pocketbooks. Still looking for that one in the Declaration.
Like it or not, the government already has a right to your pocketbook because you work in this country. It might not be in the Declaration of Independence, but you still have to pay your taxes. Try declaring your own independence from paying your taxes, and see how long the government thinks you have an unalienable right to freedom.

Quote:
Thirdly...if we are going to place so much on those lines and make them read as we want then I have the right to happiness....hapiness for me is to not have to work another day while you serve me cocktails in a maid's outfit all day long on your dime. Who are you to deny me my basic rights...
The Declaration of Independence never said you have a right to happiness. You pulled that out of your butt. It says you have a right to the pursuit of happiness. You can go out and work to secure the future that makes you happy. It doesn't say I have to make you happy. It says you can try to make yourself happy. If you need a dude in a cocktail dress to make you happy, you have the right to try to make enough money to pay a guy to do that (note that I don't question why you want that, but I do wonder why you oppose gay marriage if you want to hire men to wear dresses for you).

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Unamerican, I don't think so....I am a firm believer in the American belief that all men are created equal and therefore we all have an opportunity to do what we will with our lives. I do not work because I enjoy it...I work to take care of my family...and if that means I work for a corporation and not for myself because of my own desire not to have a boss, then that is a choice I make. We all must make choices and we all must be willing to face the results of those choices...
OK, I choose not to get a brain tumor. I choose not to have my daughter break her arm. I choose not to get hit by a bus. And everyone who does choose to have a medical condition that bankrupts or kills them should have taken responsibility.

And now I'm using absurd extremes, because carried out to its logical conclusion, your argument is absurd. My point is that you don't choose to get bronchitis. You don't choose for your child to suffer pyloric stenosis (a condition that would have killed my son if I had not been in the military, and had free health care). You can no more choose not to get sick than you can choose not to get robbed at gunpoint. You can take actions to avoid those happenstances, but you cannot actually choose not to fall ill. To me, it sounds like you are blaming people for their illnesses.

Every other democratic, first-world nation on the planet provides health care for their people. I'm not suggesting the extremes of French health care (France is, ironically, so democratic that its citizens choose to be pretty much socialists. Democracy is pretty awesome. I wonder if we could get some here).

I'm sorry if it ruffles your feathers, Sky, especially when I know you bleed red, white and blue, but denying health care to our citizens is unAmerican. The Declaration of Independence is a pretty American document. Life is a pretty basic right.

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Originally Posted by Fezzikthedoor View Post
C'mon, IMax, you know thats a bit of a spurious argument. {responses}
I'm not ignoring this bit. I believe I addressed the point at the beginning of this post, so I'm not going to has it out again. But if protecting the public is a duty of the government, why do we so actively exclude protection from disease and injury?

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They don't? I can go and have a check up/physical and just pay my co-pay; if something is wrong in my bloodwork won't it be detected? Isn't that preventative? If I've been feeling under the weather for a few weeks can't I go to the doctor and get checked out, finding out if something is wrong?
OK, I need caveats. There are preventive health care things that many insurance companies do cover. So my statement as written was innaccurate. But there are also a whole lot of things doctors could do to keep you healthier, only they are denied by health insurance companies.

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Given my earlier analysis of what the difference between an unalienable right and an alienable right, I'd really love to hear your thought process here. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just curious to hear how you came to that decision. Do you mind expanding on it, please?
Do you mean life as a basic human right? Why wouldn't it be? It seems self-evident to me.

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I'm not trying to be an intellegent donkey here, but how about the Constitution of the U.S.? The Declaration has absolutely zero weight behind it when it comes to deciding the legal action that the government is able to take in regards to what it provides for its citizens.
I don't think the Constitution is any less American than the Declaration, but I also don't think the Declaration is less American than the Constitution.
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And I don't think it's vague - Life is listed as the first unalienable right.
Here, for example. Using this line, and the fact that it is provided first, gives a slam-dunk argument against legal abortion. In short, life is presented first and thus supercedes all other ideas. Without life you can't have liberty or happiness, and so all life is sacred, especially that which will carry on the ideas presented in the document, those of generations unborn. Now we just have to squable over when life begins. [editor's note--I don't buy this line of reasoning, but I have heard it a few times.]
I buy it just fine. I also think abortion is unAmerican. And wrong.

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There are a few flaws here, I think. First, you're going to die at some point anyway--the creator who grants you those unalienable rights is going to take that right away. Secondly, there are a host of things that the government doesn't provide that could also deprive you of that life...at what point does the State's responsibility end? Finally, you assume that insurance coverage will keep you alive, but there are a host of things that will kill you regardless of the quality of care you recieve; in many cases, the best medicine can do is make your death as painless as possible.
Now we're discussing things that are outside our control. Whether you get a bone marrow transfusion when you need it is not outside the control of insurance companies. Whether that transfusion takes, and saves your life, is not. You may have the right to life, and uncontrollable factors may remove that life whether you like it or not. But it does not follow that just because you can't save someone means you shouldn't try.

I return this argument to my previous comparison to the police. I can't guarantee you that you won't get shot in a drive-by. But the government has a responsibility to try to make sure you don't. Uncle Sam can't stop you from getting liver cancer, either, but he can try to make sure it doesn't kill you.

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The thing is, when I watched Sicko I felt the exact same way you did (about the 1st half of the film...the second half was far left communist-kissing garbage) but I remembered that all propoganda is set up to work completely upon the emotions of its audience. I took a step back, calmed down, and realized that what Moore wants is for the mob to be so angry about what doesn't work well in our system that we mindlessly tear it all down in favor of what he considers to be a better system, regardless of the enherent flaws in that system.
I know, right? Moore is a shameless propagandist. For sure. Man, I wanted to punch him in the eye when I watched Bowling for Columbine. I wish someone could deliver a message that powerful without having to resort to manipulation, half-truths and deliberate ommision of salient fact. Because he's right about one thing - we don't care for our people. We don't help each other. We're too worried about our pocketbooks, scared that someone will take something from us, and in the end it costs us all a lot more.

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I don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to the U.S. health system, though. What we need is to look at what works in other countries, what works here, and then pick and choose what to keep and what to jetisen. Next, we have to figure out what are the responsibilities of individual citizens in the provision of their own health. Third, decide the extent of governmental intrusion we are comfortable with for those aspects of health care that a responsible individual couldn't provide himself, as well as how much of that governmental control could instead be diverted to an oversight role for private corporaations. Next, how do we pay for whatever jigsaw puzzle we've pieced together? And then, finally, god help us, we've got to get the government to put it all in place without screwing it up so badly that it is an even worse system than we have today!
Yeah, well, this whole paragraph is easier than it sounds. Universal health care. That would work. It works in every other major industrial democratic country in the world. It'll work here. We don't have it because HMOs and drug companies don't want us to have it, and they pay exorbitant amounts of money to make sure our government won't let us have it.

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Last edited by InfinityMax; November 9th, 2008 at 03:04 PM.
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  #3082  
Old November 9th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by skyknight View Post
Brother, you figure that out and I will gladly reconsider my stance in a heartbeat.
Luckily, someone else already figured it out. Namely, every other major industrial democracy in the world. All we have to do is look at what they do, and do that.

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I have never asked for anything and I hope I never will. I paid for my own college as I worked through it and repaid my loans, I refuse WICC while I was in the service because I'll provide milk and diapers for my kids even if I have to give up things that I want. And my family is pretty well self reliant...someone tell me how that is bad please?
I think you may have skipped a couple lines, or maybe added a few that weren't there before. Nobody said you were bad for not taking a handout. You haven't needed one, so good for you. Other people haven't been as lucky. For the betterment of our society, we should try to take care of people who aren't as lucky as we are.

Look, I have government insurance now, and it's the best I've had since I was in the Navy. I'm not worried about myself. I'm not worried about you, either, Sky. But there are hundreds of thousands of people - millions, even, just in this country - that aren't as fortunate as I am. They have had tumors, or cancer, or mental illnesses, or disabling accidents, and now they've lost their homes, their jobs, and in many cases, their lives. And we could have stopped it. We SHOULD have stopped it.

I don't want a handout. I want the government to step in, take my money, and give a handout to people who need it. There's nothing wrong with not looking for a free lunch. But there is something inherently unAmerican about standing by and watching those less fortunate than ourselves flounder, fail and die, especially when the only reason we don't stop it is because rich people in power don't want it to cut into their bottom line.

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Old November 9th, 2008, 03:02 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

First of all, I still feel this thread has become excessively long, and now that the 'Race for the Presidency' is over, I think we should switch to a more generic political thread, such as "The great political debate" mirroring the "Great religious debate" thread that was on the HQ a few years ago.

Anyways, about what I said earlier about minorities voting for liberals more often.

I believe it is because of the amount of benefits they receive. Regardless of your financial status, if you are a member of what the liberals consider to be a minority deserving of benefits for simply existing, why would you bite the hand of the government that is handing you scholarships, money, and others?

This is very similar to how most public school teachers vote liberal. Typically the democratic candidate promises more money into education, which means more money in the teachers' pockets, once again, they hand you stuff, why would you vote against them?

I was in no way implying that 90% of blacks are contributing nothing to society. I am very offended Imax by how you consider me racists for believing this. Then again, Imax probably can't read this right now. Feel free to quote it for his viewing pleasure.


Oh, and I have a request to anyone citing the Bible as a source. Please do everything in your power to quote from the New Testament when referring to rules to live by, marriage, etc. There are so many now outmoded rules in the Old Testament, that you cannot cite one part and leave out other related items, often advocating capital punishment in what are now not considered to require such severity. And the rules about what to eat and not eat are invalidated in the new testament when God tells an apostle (was it Paul, I forgot), to simply 'kill and eat' regardless of whether it was formerly considered clean and unclean. With this contradiction, it is illogical to use other laws in the old testament as sources, as they too may have been removed in the new testament.

To Skyknight: Thank you for your response to Imax, I wholeheatedly agree with you. Police/Fire, library, and sanitation are for the most part fine as is. None are being overly funded, and at least my city's library is funded much more by donations than anything else. Public school is recieving too much funding. What I don't understand is why the teachers in these schools are continually asking for more funding. Take the Milwaukee school district for example. At the last budget meeting, the people in charge of the union were very annoyed because they had stayed under the budget set for the previous year, and therefore had no grounds to attempt to increase the amount spent of education. It was obvious that they had enough, yet they were still doing everything in their power to increase their salaries. I have several friends who are public school teachers, they are republicans, and typically vote for the republican/conservative candidate or issue. They knew exactly what they were getting into when it comes to wages, and aren't expecting the budget to be increased. They get along just fine, and with summers off they can run a local summer camp. All that I'm saying is that if they had wanted a high paying job they would have gone into another field. If you are a teacher, you should have had an idea to what your wages would be. With this knowledge prior to becoming a teacher, you really have no reason to try to increase your salary by asking for a bigger budget.

-Nukatha, back in, with less anger and more logic.

EDIT: Thank you Imax for serving your country.

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  #3084  
Old November 9th, 2008, 03:41 PM
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Re: Race for the presidency political discussion thread

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Originally Posted by InfinityMax View Post

I think you may have skipped a couple lines, or maybe added a few that weren't there before. Nobody said you were bad for not taking a handout. You haven't needed one, so good for you. Other people haven't been as lucky. For the betterment of our society, we should try to take care of people who aren't as lucky as we are.
But thats just it brother....it is not luck. I worked my way through college... I have had more **** poor paying jobs than most people I know. I swabbed the crappers in a club in college until I actually got to bartend for a while and make some decent cash on top of my other job and school.

After college, I joined the service as a friggin PFC with a college education and a new family. Under Clinton I made squat so my wife busted her hump and I took odd jobs to keep us afloat.

These days things are better but if worse came to worse I would stock shelves at Wal-Mart while I pumped gas at night at the local convenience store. It is not luck, it is will power...I refuse to leave my family unprotected. When it was just me it was differnet...I could live on a package of Ramen Noodles for a week...these days though it is 100% up to me to ensure they get what they NEED. Anything left over I can enjoy myself but first and foremost is them.

It really is not luck...it is determination.

And I do agree it is up to us to take care of our fellow man....but I choose to do this because I am a Christian...not because of the Government. In my mind the Govenrment should provide the following..

1. Protection from enemies to its people both foreign and domestic
2. Education to a certain level
3. Infrastructure
4. Environmental Stewards (to a degree)
5. "Some" Disaster relief
6. Take care of children, the truly disabled, and the elderly. (mainly done by holding those responsible for them accountable)

I am sure I am forgetting some but most things fit into those categories.... for the most part I want very limited government, not more. I don't know if we will ever agree on this stuff Imax...I am completely on the personal responsibilty side of the spectrum and you are on the forced legislaton to take care of our fellow man side. I really wish you could understand how it just turns my guts to think about having someone else make my choices for me. It is almost an instinctual denial of my very soul that screams out...please government just get out of my life!!! I am fine..I do not need you...do what you need to do but leave me alone. To me that is the very essence of freedom...just to be left alone with my family without having legislation and other peoples view points forced on me and mine.
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