The Book of Doctor Doom (Sorcerer)

[Arkham]

Good catch, I forgot about that change. Luckily, 1 auto wound won't play much of a difference as if I had attacked with Doom, it's certainly possible it would have led to that 1 wound anyways. Good thing I didn't drop 3-4 auto wounds with one of them.

[Yodaking]

Good to see you are on top of thing Ronin as I just mentioned the same thing in the spell thread. I don't see it as having a big impact here. The Fan4 having a good d20 run and winning makes me feel a bit better about the Wrecking Crew not getting a good d20 run and losing big in my game.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Good to see you are on top of thing Ronin as I just mentioned the same thing in the spell thread. I don't see it as having a big impact here. The Fan4 having a good d20 run and winning makes me feel a bit better about the Wrecking Crew not getting a good d20 run and losing big in my game.

Look, I know this is probably just me, and it's how I test anyway, but... are you sure those builds are good ones to test with? They seem so swingy that it's hard to home in on reasonable results. Now, I won't deny at least one Fan4 test is nigh mandatory, seeing as this is Doctor Doom, thematic tests are important (though I'll probably not use them when I test him, because on top of what I'm saying, I don't feel comfortable using them), but I'm not sure these are the best teams to use generally. Hell, I don't test using Spider-Man without having a specific reason, since I know how ludicrously swingy (haha, get it? I'll see myself out now) he is, and he's just one figure, and one I really like to boot. I'd have thought getting results that are as consistent as possible (it's still a game of chance, I know, but some teams/units are swingier than others) would be one of the priorities when working out a team for a test.

As I said, though, this is probably just me, I just thought I'd mention something that had been confusing me - I'll crawl back into my corner now.

~ Lazy Orang, bemoaning swinginess... oh, the irony.

[Ronin]

Results in from BamBam:

Originally Posted by b57123m

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Doctor Doom (II)

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum (BOV)
Units: 1000 [Doctor Doom, 3 Doombots, and Abomination] [Kingpin, Hired Guns, Street Thugs, Wizard, Ventriloquist, Electro, Bodyguard, and Bane]

Summary/Gameplan: The general idea here was to get him into the battle with a bodyguard and hope for the best with the Doombot reincarnation and the D20 roll to lose his powers. Abom was just another muscle head who happened to get the army to 1000 points. The Kingpin and his criminal underworld decided to invade Latveria to set up their mischievous things. Going into it, I wanted Doom to take the height so he could eventually hit at 4+3(Invoked)+1(Height)=8 att/def after 3 rounds. This game Doom and Abom got overwhelmed by the Hired Guns double attacks but Dooms Magical Defence is great for forcing him to survive at least 3 rounds to get to full charge.

HIGHLIGHTS
Round 1:
Kingpin and Street Thugs advance forward
Abomination kills a Street Thugs (3 left)
Hired Gun wounds Abomination (6)
Doctor Doom misses Kingpin and doesn’t get the roll for Mystic Domination
Hired Guns puts 3 wounds on Abomination (3) [yikes…]
Kingpin puts 2 on Abomination (1) [double yikes…]
Abomination kills a Hired Gun (3 left)

Round 2:
Hired Guns kill Abomination (0) [triple yikes, all on Doom now]
Doom wounds Kingpin (4), takes over Kingpin but gets blocked by a Hired Gun
Kingpin wounds the Doctor (4)
God Doom puts 3 wounds on Kingpin (1), no Mystic Domination
Doctor Doom goes on to kill Kingpin, no MysDom roll

Round 3:
Doom kills a Hired Gun (2 left), successfully takes over a Hired Gun
Hired Gun kills two of its own Street Thugs (1 left)
Hired Gun wounds Doom (3)
Doom kills a Hired Gun (1 left), takes over last Hired Gun
Hired Gun kills last Street Thug (0 left)
Last Hired Gun uses it’s Double Attack to get 2 on Doom (1)
Doom kills last Hired Gun (0 left), no Power Loss on the roll.

Round 4:
Doom whiffs on Wizard, no roll
Doctor Doom attacks Wizard, Wizard’s Force Field X negates the attack, no MysDom
Bane misses Doom
Doom puts 4 wounds on Wizard and rips out his spine (0) (Bonus points if you know what Comic Arc I’m talking about.), No MysDom

Round 5:
Bane Autowounds himself with his Venom Injection (5)
Doom puts 3 on Electro (1), No MysDom
Ventriloquist joins the fight and puts 1 wound on Doom (0)
Doom has DIED! NOOOOOOO
Oh wait, Doombot is successful
Doctor Doom (4)
2 Doombots left
With all the order markers still on Doom, he flies forward and wounds Bane (4)

Round 6:
A very uneventful round
…Except that the only successful attack was 4 WOUNDS on Bane. (0), no MysDom

Round 7:
Doctor Doom puts 4 on Electro (0), Apparently Doom shows up only to give 4 wounds this match, rolls for Mystic Domination at full Incantation, rolls a 3.
Doom Loses all his powers, shucks.
Doom still wounds Ventriloquist (3)
Ventriloquist gets 2 on Not-So-God-Doom (2)

Round 8:
Ventriloquist puts two on Doom (0)
Doombot succeeds again!
1 Doombot left
Doctor Doom (4)
Doom wounds Ventriloquist (2)
Doom kills Ventriloquist (0)

Round 9:
Bodyguard wounds Doctor Doom (3)
Doctor Doom brings a multiverse down on the lone bodyguard’s head. (0)
GAME.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes):
Doctor Doom (II)[3], Doombot (2)

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Fulcrum (BOV)
Units: 800 [Doctor Doom, 3 Doombots, Jubilee, Kid Flash] [Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, X-23]

Summary/Gameplan: Who else could this be against other than Doom’s true nemesis, X-23. Just kidding, the battle of the ages takes place with Doom and his replicas fighting The F4. Honestly, Kid Flash is in the fight to add a distraction and cannon fodder. Jubilee on the other hand was because I thought I had a better plan using Destiny and guaranteeing Doom’s revival but then needed to find someone of equal points to switch her out because I forgot Destiny only worked on Mutants. Either way, DOOM VERSUS REED! The F4 Bonding is tough to get apart but Doom’s strategy was to get rid of Sue first and then take on Reed and Johnny. The F4 Strategy was to kill doom and march over and slaughter his doombots (Who I find are honestly the best support figures for this Doom). Doom ended up defeating the entire other team with no help from his team (which fits his character) but without his Doombots he would have died twice over.

HIGHLIGHTS
Round 1:
Doctor Doom and Human Torch reach the centre high point first.
Doctor Doom puts 2 wounds on Human Torch (3), no MysDom
Invisible Woman wounds Doom (4)
Mister Fantastic wounds Doom (3)
Doom is blocked by Human Torch but successfully roll for MysDom.
Bambam thinks to himself, what is the most fun way to go about this.
Doom takes over Human Torch
Human Torch, surrounded by Doom, Invisible Woman and Mister Fantastic decides to Supernova. 7 attack and Doom can only take max 1 wound, worth it.
Human Torch supernovas 3 wounds on Sue (2)
Human Torch misses Mr. Fantastic
Human Torch supernovas Doom (2)
Invisible Woman wounds Doom (1)
Mister Fantastic wounds Doom (0)
Doombot is Successful
2 Doombots left
Doctor Doom (4)

Round 2:
Invisible Woman wounds DD (3)
Doom kills his one true love, Sue Storm (0)
Mister Fantastic puts a wound on Doom in revenge for the death of his wife (2)
Doom puts 2 on Richards (3), takes over Mister Fantastic with MysDom
Mister fantastic wounds Human Torch (2)
Mister Fantastic wounds Doctor Doom (1)

Round 3:
Doctor Doom blocked by Human Torch, take over Mister Fantastic
Mister Fantastic is blocked by Human Torch
Mister Fantastic wounds Doom (0)
DOOMBOT SUCCESS
1 Doombot left
Doctor Doom (4)
Doom wounds Human Torch (1)

Round 4:
Human Torch wounds Doom (3)
Doctor Doom puts 2 on Mister Fantastic (0)
Doom wounds Human Torch (0)

Round 5:
Doom puts 4 wounds on X-23 (1)
She misses Doom
Doom wounds X-23 (0)

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes):
Doctor Doom (3), Kid Flash (4), Domont (2), and Jubilee (4)


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:

His cost seemed very balanced in the first match because it ended up being a close one, he did however sweep most of the other team the second match. You mentioned how he was a high risk high reward character and I agree. In the first match, he amped himself up and went toe to toe with the heavy hitters on the opposing side. Luckily when he did lose his powers, the only remaining enemies weren’t very big threats. The second match was interesting because he was killed in the first round but went on to win the match single handily. I think there will be potential to him being drafted with an army one day (I think you guys are gearing towards a demon release for October, just a guess) but right now his powers are more focussed on himself then a team. This kind of works since he does things for himself and doesn’t need anyone else, so theme-wise a big win. Another unit I tested could turn a figure into a demon, it might be a great strategy to have Doom 2, the playtested unit and a d20 altering figure (turned into a Demon) so Doom would never lose his powers.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT:

I had fun playing him, I am not the most competitive player and don’t build game-breaking teams but make my teams fun. I enjoy a character who can come in and get super lucky and trample opponents but the fact that this guys could come in ready to have 7/7 stats and roll a 1 his first few turns is a fun mechanic that you don’t think will ever happen to you and then bam, you’re hitting worse than figures worth half your points.

Couple more wins here, but BamBam misplayed Mystic Domination in the first game by letting Doom take over individual Hired Guns and also his armies are weird.

So far, counting the initial, Doom is 6-5, good impressions so far. I'd like to see at least another set of tests here, though.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Look, I know this is probably just me, and it's how I test anyway, but... are you sure those builds are good ones to test with? They seem so swingy that it's hard to home in on reasonable results. Now, I won't deny at least one Fan4 test is nigh mandatory, seeing as this is Doctor Doom, thematic tests are important (though I'll probably not use them when I test him, because on top of what I'm saying, I don't feel comfortable using them), but I'm not sure these are the best teams to use generally. Hell, I don't test using Spider-Man without having a specific reason, since I know how ludicrously swingy (haha, get it? I'll see myself out now) he is, and he's just one figure, and one I really like to boot. I'd have thought getting results that are as consistent as possible (it's still a game of chance, I know, but some teams/units are swingier than others) would be one of the priorities when working out a team for a test.

As I said, though, this is probably just me, I just thought I'd mention something that had been confusing me - I'll crawl back into my corner now.

~ Lazy Orang, bemoaning swinginess... oh, the irony.

There's nothing wrong with giving an edge to 'stable' builds for testing. It's fine to play with swingy builds, though, as long as you know how to play them and you're familiar enough to keep an eye on their performance and analyze how they're doing.

It can sometimes cast doubt on the results a little (did Doom win that game because Reed was rolling poorly, or was it because Doom is just too good?) but that's why we ask for a bunch of tests, and builds that revolve around a d20 can also provide a big red flag (okay, Reed rolled 20s all game and still got crushed, this is a problem).

The main thing I try to avoid is anything too mindgame-y or contingent on OM placement, since I'm solo-scaping. I like the FF (and the X-Men and Masters of Evil) because you don't have to make very many decisions about where to put OMs.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Look, I know this is probably just me, and it's how I test anyway, but... are you sure those builds are good ones to test with? They seem so swingy that it's hard to home in on reasonable results. Now, I won't deny at least one Fan4 test is nigh mandatory, seeing as this is Doctor Doom, thematic tests are important (though I'll probably not use them when I test him, because on top of what I'm saying, I don't feel comfortable using them), but I'm not sure these are the best teams to use generally. Hell, I don't test using Spider-Man without having a specific reason, since I know how ludicrously swingy (haha, get it? I'll see myself out now) he is, and he's just one figure, and one I really like to boot. I'd have thought getting results that are as consistent as possible (it's still a game of chance, I know, but some teams/units are swingier than others) would be one of the priorities when working out a team for a test.

As I said, though, this is probably just me, I just thought I'd mention something that had been confusing me - I'll crawl back into my corner now.

~ Lazy Orang, bemoaning swinginess... oh, the irony.

I use both the Fan4 & the Wrecking Crew a lot in testing these days. They are both tried and true solid team builds at their respective point cost. Both have many different tricks with which they can tackle different kinds of tactical problems and neither team usually folds over very easily. I consider them the gold standard and that is precisely why I want to see how a team built around a new unit can fair against them. I find in most of my games the good and bad luck they can experience tends to balance out over the course of a game. Can they sometimes have a run of really good or really bad luck and over or under perform, yes but so can every single unit in C3G. You just have to make note of it and factor that into the results.

I have reviewed a lot of play test reports over the years I have been a part of C3G & HoSS, and numerous times I have seen some very questionable team builds used in testing. It is much harder to sort out the impact a new unit had on a big win or loss when one team was clearly over matched from the very beginning. For me, the Fan4 and Wrecking Crew are known quantities that provide a solid base line from which to gauge a units effectiveness. That doesn't mean everyone should go that route, or that I want to see everyone use them for tests. The different play styles, armies, and tactics used through out the testing process is how a unit finds it's balancing point.

As for using Spider-man in tests, I have used him more than once but he isn't a go to guy for me. Sometimes he can be a good match-up for a new unit with an auto wound power, as I want to see how effective it can be at dealing with someone like Spider-man. Is the power set so strong that Spidey will need to run and hide? Can Spidey still go toe to toe with him and split games or fight to a draw? Is Spidey still able to dominate the unit even when they have a way to get past his defensive power? Finding the answers to these questions has an impact on final cost determination. Sometimes those answers can be determined in the one on one hero tests, if their projected costs are somewhat close together. Other times having allies to support or benefit from their power set is what makes a unit shine and so the team tests are where I want to see that show down.

[Lazy Orang]

Okay, signing up for this guy, I think - I should be able to get him done within the week.

How's this match-up looking to you guys?

Doctor Doom (vII), Baron Heinrich Zemo, Iron Monger, 2x Doombots, Trapster (because fiiller)
vs
Original X-Men (my own standard testing team - don't go wrong with them )

[Ronin]

Cool!

I'm not sure I'd do the Masters of Evil thing. Doom doesn't get extra Mystic Domination turns without an OM reveal on his own card, so he wants a lot of your OMs and Zemo doesn't get to fully work his magic in that build. Granted, you can still manage your turns with your other Heroes, but it's my experience that you don't want a ton of those while Doom's in the game and not negated. He tends to take center stage.

Working on summing up the results so far. Going to have a playtest summary up in a bit. I'll page the CRB and see if there's anything they find concerning so far or anything they suggest for further testing.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Cool!

I'm not sure I'd do the Masters of Evil thing. Doom doesn't get extra Mystic Domination turns without an OM reveal on his own card, so he wants a lot of your OMs and Zemo doesn't get to fully work his magic in that build. Granted, you can still manage your turns with your other Heroes, but it's my experience that you don't want a ton of those while Doom's in the game and not negated. He tends to take center stage.

Working on summing up the results so far. Going to have a playtest summary up in a bit. I'll page the CRB and see if there's anything they find concerning so far or anything they suggest for further testing.

Ah! Missed that. Alright, I have genuinely no idea how to build around this guy. Just throw in some decent looking heroes? Cutting Zemo and the pointless Trapster leaves me with 245, sooo.... Titanium Man? Evil Iron Army thing going on there?

I'm also planning on Embattled Fen for the first battleground.

[Ronin]

I'd say generally the best way to go is figures that don't want OMs, or don't want very many OMs. I had a lot of luck with both Angels, and Jason Voorhees. I'd say that's generally the sort of thing you want. Grabbing Wong or Zombie isn't a bad idea. I haven't tried him with Judge Fear or Valkyrie yet, but I suspect he likes them a lot.

Doom is also fine with figures that can advance him without making him take a turn, so he gets on fine with Martian Manhunter. Star-Lord limits you to one Doombot, but Doom still likes him well enough, too.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I'd say generally the best way to go is figures that don't want OMs, or don't want very many OMs. I had a lot of luck with both Angels, and Jason Voorhees. I'd say that's generally the sort of thing you want. Grabbing Wong or Zombie isn't a bad idea. I haven't tried him with Judge Fear or Valkyrie yet, but I suspect he likes them a lot.

Doom is also fine with figures that can advance him without making him take a turn, so he gets on fine with Martian Manhunter. Star-Lord limits you to one Doombot, but Doom still likes him well enough, too.

I'd forgotten all about Wong! Nice - I might use him in game 2, and Zombie in the first one. I see he's been tested quite thoroughly with the Angel/Angel/Jason combo, and I don't want to be redundant, plus I've never played Angel (Liam) or Jason before, so I think I'll avoid those. I'm also not really familiar with Fear, and Valkyrie kind of feels like she'd be stepping on the Doombots toes.

This probably makes a good base for Test One

Doctor Doom, 2x Doombots, Zombie (655 Points)

Though I'm not sure where to go from there, and I'd appreciate some input. I had this thought for Test 2, though:

Doctor Doom, Black Adam, 2x Doombots, Wong (1,005 Points)

Basically, the idea of that is that the opponent would have to deal with your two big monsters nigh-simultaneously, and Black Adam's Wisdom of Zehuti should give you some tactical flexibility.

If you have any suggestions for matchups as well, I'm all ears.

[Ronin]

PLAYTESTING SUMMARY REPORT

Spoiler Alert!

[Ronin] Initial Tests: @345

Game 1: Doctor Doom (345), Angel (Warren), Angel (Liam), Jason Voorhees, Doombots x2 (1000) vs. Captain America (C3G), Bucky, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man (C3G) (1000)

Results: Spider-Man with 3 wounds

Game 2: Doctor Doom (345), Angel (Warren), Angel (Liam), Jason Voorhees, Doombots x2 (1000) vs. Fantastic Four (1000)

Results: Mister Fantastic and Invisible Woman with 4 wounds each, Thing unwounded

Game 3: Doctor Doom (345), Angel (Warren), Angel (Liam), Jason Voorhees, Doombots x2 (1000) vs. Fantastic Four (1000)

Results: Invisible Woman with 4 wounds, The Thing with 3 wounds

Game 4: Doctor Doom (345), Doombot, Wong (530) vs. Black Canary, Green Arrow (Ollie), Speedy (Roy), Robin (Dick) (530)

Results: Doctor Doom (negated) with 4 wounds, Doombot unwounded

Game 5: Doctor Doom (345), Doombot, Star-Lord, Martian Manhunter, Angel (Warren), Zombie (1200) vs. Baron Zemo, Thor, Allen the Alien, Kraven (1200)

Results: Doctor Doom (negated) with 3 wounds, Star-Lord and Angel unwounded

----------------------------------------
[Yodaking] Public Test: @345

Game 1: Dr. Doom, Doombot, C3G Abomination (800) vs. Wrecking Crew (800)

Results: Dr. Doom w/3W & Doombot at full life

Game 2: Dr. Doom, Final Ruin Spell, WoD Spell, IoI Spell @15, Temporal Shift Spell, Mystic Flames Spell, Lightning Bolt Spell x2, Doombot, Redskull, Iron Patriot (1000) vs. Nightwing, Raven, Starfire, Superboy, Red Robin (1000)

Results: Red Skull w/4W and Dr. Doom (negated) w/3W
----------------------------------------
[Arkham] Public Test: @345

Game 1: Dr. Doom II(345), Star-Lord(250), Doombot(95), Gamora(310) (1,000) vs. Fantastic Four (1,000)

Results: Thing with 2 wounds

Game 2: Dr. Doom II(345), Doombot(95), Jason Voorhees(175), Vengeance Spell x 2(20 x 2) (655) vs. Scandal Savage(200), Bane(190), Deadshot(150), Oracle(110) (650)

Results: Oracle with 1 wound
----------------------------------------
[b57123m] Public Test: @345

Game 1: Doctor Doom, 3 Doombots, and Abomination (1000) vs. Kingpin, Hired Guns, Street Thugs, Wizard, Ventriloquist, Electro, Bodyguard, and Bane (1000)

Results: Doctor Doom (negated) with 2 wounds, Doombot at full life

Game 2: Doctor Doom, 3 Doombots, Jubilee, Kid Flash (800) vs. Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, X-23 (895)

Results: Doctor Doom with 2 wounds, 1x Doombot, Jubilee and Kid Flash at full life

---------------------
Overall W/L Record: 6-5
Comments on Figure's Impact on Results: Dr Doom is central to any army you put him in, and he's undoubtedly having a big impact on the outcomes.

Here are the results so far.
@dok @Soundwarp SG-1 @Dysole @weebaer

Anything too concerning here, or any strategies we're missing that really need to be hit?