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  #25  
Old October 30th, 2006, 09:24 PM
CornPuff CornPuff is offline
 
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First order of business: I agree with R˙chean about his new 24-hex proposed start zones. I agree that we should avoid using 'Booster Terrain' like the plague.

Second order: glyphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
I have already stated my opinion that glyphs should be set for random; I am in agreement with UPC on that point.
Well, I think random isn't as good as fixed. Random will produce a pretty crappy board sometimes, and fixed will always produce the same good board. Random glyphs adds a heavier luck element to the board, making it less strategic. I haven't seen much argument other than 'gut feeling' as to why random glyphs are good, and I would love to hear some reasons. I don't think random glyphs are the spawn of satan, I just think fixed glyphs are the best option for tournament play.

But if I'm outvoted, I might as well be constructive.

So, are we going to mandate how random glyphs work? Are they revealed before order marker placement? Are the revealed when you step on them? If we are going to use Kelda on random glyph tournament maps, we have to reveal glyphs before first round order markers. I strongly urge that we advocate this method of play if we are judging random glyph maps.

Which glyphs go randomly into which spots? We need to define the "Glyph Pool" from which we select glyphs and the "Glyph Locations" of where we put them.

I think [KAVG] should be our glyph pool, and the [KAVG] hexes should be our glyph locations. I am open to the idea of including the [D] glyph to the pool and locations.

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  #26  
Old October 31st, 2006, 08:13 AM
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I vote for random glyphs that are not known till they are stepped on. At truth's tourney people wanted the side closer to the attack verses the defense. If this gives an edge, then one side has an advantage over the other. When they are random there is no advantage and anything can happen, like losing the finals to a curse. But IMO the glyph are magic so I like the idea of random and not knowing. When you have a big army and there is a cursed glyph you kinda feel like, is it worth opeing a glyph and risking the the curse. Of course at my tourney I housed ruled the curse only affects the team that opens it, which I feel works way better.
If you know where the glyphs are making the board even gets harder, IMO, then when they are random.

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  #27  
Old October 31st, 2006, 08:39 AM
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All glyphs should be revealed before game play starts. Random just means that when you are building your army you don't have prior knowledge of glyphs. There is nothing about it that reduces strategy at all.


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  #28  
Old October 31st, 2006, 09:52 AM
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This may be just me, but I have to disagree with mandating 24 hex starting zones. Keep in mind we're talking about maps consisting of a single master set with one or two terrain-based expansions. The 18 hex starting zone of VW fits very well with the 4-500 point limit, and encourages the use of heroes, as opposed to squad-heavy armies.

If anything, I'd say 24 hexes should be a maximum size for starting zones for this size map. The more space devoted to starting zones, the less space available for interesting terrain.

Dead-set rules about individual map features force compromises in other areas.
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  #29  
Old October 31st, 2006, 09:59 AM
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R˙chean and CornPuff, I agree with your accessment of not moving the hexes on the map to adjust the starting zone. I really didn't care for the idea myself, I was just trying to throw some ideas out there.

CornPuff, it is OK that we agree to disagree on the glyphs. Does that mean I will never vote for a map with predetermined glyphs? No, it just means that my personal preference for tournament maps is using a glyph pool. However, as I have stated earlier, I do think that there are glyphs that have no business being in a tournament setting. I think we can leave the glyph pool determination to the tournament directors.

One thing that I like about random glyphs is that it does make for slightly different maps each time. If I get stuck playing a map more than once in a tournament, it is a nice challenge to alter my play accordingly because of the different glyphs each time. Plus, as stated by Hendal, when players start vying for a side before a game even starts because of static glyph placement (which actually is more a map design issue), it raises a few eyebrows.

Again, I am not asking you to join the "glyph pool" team, just explaining that it is OK to think differently on some things. We need that on this team.

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  #30  
Old October 31st, 2006, 12:33 PM
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Perhaps tourny maps weren't the easiest place to start after all. I think the problem we're having comes from a lack of standard tournament rules. Part of that problem seems to simply come from the fact that each of us have our own preferences and experiences on the matter.

I also personally have to vote no on Forsaken Waters at the moment. I know everyone likes the map, and thinks it's a good candidate, but I think right now people agree that's it's an excellent map that needs some tweaking to actually be worthy. It's not our place to tweak it until it fits into Battlefields, it's our job to turn it away until someone submits a worthy version.

I'd rather say it's time to open a thread for nominations and let someone enter their own map. We almost need something flawed to turn away rather than something we want to accept before we've taken a hard look at it.

On another topic, I think it's a good thing that we don't agree on things like glyph placement and the like. I'd rather have a diverse set of viewpoints on a map than a system where people build maps that conform to an elitist view of what makes a "good" map. I'm interested in what the map designers come up with in terms of glyphs (be they random or preset) and the like. I have my prejudices when it comes to map features. If someone can make a map that goes against my vision of what makes a good map and still impresses me, THEN we've got a good contender for the Battlefields.
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  #31  
Old October 31st, 2006, 12:47 PM
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Random glyph order of events:

1.) Choose random glyphs, place face down on predetermined glyph locations.
2.) Both players armies are deployed in the starting zones
3.) Glyphs are revealed prior to turn markers and pre-turn marker activity (AE drop)

This way the deployment of your army isn't slanted with glyph knowledge.

Eclipse makes a good point about FW that it isn't our thing to tweak for tourney, however, I think FW is the exception. We are trying to work through what we will accept and what is a valid candidate. Future nominations will not be augmented to fit into our tournament map guidelines; they will need to already be meeting that criteria or the nomination will be rejected.

I have a nomination I want to make but would really like to see us work the kinks out with FW first.

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  #32  
Old October 31st, 2006, 11:01 PM
CornPuff CornPuff is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Eclipse makes a good point about FW that it isn't our thing to tweak for tourney, however, I think FW is the exception. We are trying to work through what we will accept and what is a valid candidate. Future nominations will not be augmented to fit into our tournament map guidelines; they will need to already be meeting that criteria or the nomination will be rejected.
I agree with this statement. We are still working out lots of kinks in the process, so when we deal with someone elses map we can focus on the map, not the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahrma
This may be just me, but I have to disagree with mandating 24 hex starting zones. <snip>
Thanks for vocalising your concern! As you may know, I agree with you, but we're pushing forward with 24 hex start zones to get this thing off the ground. We can always change it a few maps down the road *fingers crossed, heh*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UPC
Again, I am not asking you to join the "glyph pool" team, just explaining that it is OK to think differently on some things. Wink We need that on this team.
Heh, its a little tiring when you don't see eye to eye, but I recognize the need to push forward. I'll keep trying to explain my ideas as clearly as I can. Its good to know a little dissent is welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
All glyphs should be revealed before game play starts. Random just means that when you are building your army you don't have prior knowledge of glyphs.
Sure, I can go for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob, emhasis added
There is nothing about it that reduces strategy at all.
I disagree with this statement. A lot.

Random glyphs DO reduce strategy by reducing sensible army options.

Attack glyph benefits low atk squads, double attackers and deadly strikers.
Defense glyphs benefit high life heroes, low def squads, defensive special power people.
Kelda benefits high cost heroes.
Move benefits low move common squads.
Init benefits slow melee squads that are trying for a double move (going last one round, then first the next)

Basically, glyphs favor squadscape. You know who doesn't benefit from glyphs? Q9. He's better off special attacking (even with a +2 bonus) so Astrid doesn't help, and he's high def low life so gerda doesn't do much. And he's one figure, which means he has a lot of trouble claiming glyphs.

Common, cheap squads get tremendous benefits from most glyphs, so they will win if glyphs are present. Common cheap figures also have better map control, so they will have the glyphs that make them more powerful.

So, if glyphs are random, big heroes don't win. This reduces strategy tremendously, as it narrows the scope of feasible armies. If you know that the heal glyph is on a map, this changes things tremendously. If you know there will be a 1 in 8 chance your event organizer will put kelda on your board, and you only play 6 games at your tourney, then Kelda doesn't mean a damn thing.

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  #33  
Old October 31st, 2006, 11:07 PM
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Grungebob Grungebob is offline
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The point is not to build an army to the glyphs, it is to build an army to fight other armies. The glyphs provide a variation in the way a map plays. so if you have a small map pool you can keep things interesting and unpredictable through the use of random glyphs. I would think that having static glyphs would have players developing armies based upon glyph choice and that is not something I would want to see... I'm surprised anybody would want that.


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  #34  
Old October 31st, 2006, 11:28 PM
CornPuff CornPuff is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
The point is not to build an army to the glyphs, it is to build an army to fight other armies. The glyphs provide a variation in the way a map plays. so if you have a small map pool you can keep things interesting and unpredictable through the use of random glyphs. I would think that having static glyphs would have players developing armies based upon glyph choice and that is not something I would want to see... I'm surprised anybody would want that.
You build your army to the glyphs and the terrain so that you can defeat your opponent. If I thought for a second that drafting for the map was unimportant, I would have never have started this map-judging project, much less helped with it.

I agree that random glyphs can make a a small map pool more interesting by adding variety. Glyphs are as big an influence to army composition as the terrain itself. If all maps use random glyphs, then all maps, from an army composition point of view, are 50% identical.

If we are using random glyphs on approved maps, I heavily encourage event organizers to use very limited glyph pools when they hold events (and to use a different pool every time). One tourney could be "Kelda, Gerda and Valda" and the next tourney could be "Lodin, Dagmar and Astrid". The success of GrungeBob's own Ne-Gok-Sa Mindshackle tournament proves that limiting the selection of glyphs can provide highly entertaining results.

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  #35  
Old October 31st, 2006, 11:42 PM
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That is why R˙chean is pushing for glyph PLACEMENT over which glyphs to use. The most important thing is having glyph placement be even. If an organizer wants static glyphs to ease in setup, then at least he knows exactly where they go.


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  #36  
Old November 1st, 2006, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
That is why R˙chean is pushing for glyph PLACEMENT over which glyphs to use. The most important thing is having glyph placement be even. If an organizer wants static glyphs to ease in setup, then at least he knows exactly where they go.
Of course, Glyph placement with random glyphs can be very difficult. For example, having a DEF or Atk glyph on a higher position is a huge deal compared to having something like the Initiative or even Move glyph. Giving the Initiative glyph highground makes it more appealing and easier to defend, randomly finding the Astrid in that same spot can leave you with a Sniper who suddenly found himself with 3 attack.

Personally I'd rather have a wider variety of solid/balanced maps in a tournament. It's not like you really have the option of drafting for the map in a tournament situation. Random glyphs just lead to bad situations from my experience. Certain glyphs need to be placed in disadvantagous positions on the map, while others are often best placed in more advantageous/harder to reach sections of the map.
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