The Book of Jackal

[Yodaking]

Is the intent here that once you have created the 1st clone you continue to roll the d20 at the start of the following rounds attempting to create more clones? Or is the intent here that once you have created a clone, you stop rolling the d20 until that clone is dead, only then you can attempt to created a 2nd/3rd/4th clone? Also, if the Hero being cloned has a once per game power and used it while they were alive, does the clone get to use it once as well since it's a new hero?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Is the intent here that once you have created the 1st clone you continue to roll the d20 at the start of the following rounds attempting to create more clones? Or is the intent here that once you have created a clone, you stop rolling the d20 until that clone is dead, only then you can attempt to created a 2nd/3rd/4th clone? Also, if the Hero being cloned has a once per game power and used it while they were alive, does the clone get to use it once as well since it's a new hero?

Since you choose an character at the start of the game to be your Experiment and you can only roll to bring it back if it's destroyed, you can only create more Clones if the current iteration is dead. Functionally, though the theme is the creation of a whole new organism (a Clone), in gameplay terms it's just a resurrection, possible mind control and a Species change. By the same token, it's not a new Hero in game terms and any once per game powers it's already used are already used - so if Jackal attempted to clone Johnny Storm after he's let off his Supernova, he'd essentially be cloning a powerless human.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Is the intent here that once you have created the 1st clone you continue to roll the d20 at the start of the following rounds attempting to create more clones? Or is the intent here that once you have created a clone, you stop rolling the d20 until that clone is dead, only then you can attempt to created a 2nd/3rd/4th clone? Also, if the Hero being cloned has a once per game power and used it while they were alive, does the clone get to use it once as well since it's a new hero?

That's actually a tough one in my book. I could easily see it going either way depending on the wording of the power in question itself, Like Johnny Storm's negates all of his powers for the remainder of the game. I would lean towards no overall, but I could see an argument for yes. I guess it really depends on how we want to rule this.

[Yodaking]

Technically speaking, if you choose a human or mutate for the power at the start of the game, once it's destroyed it remains destroyed. The hero you place on the board as the Experiment is a new/different hero with the species of clone instead of human or mutate. A rules lawyer could try to continue rolling to create new clones while another clone was still in play. I didn't think that was the intent, since it doesn't mention what to do for the new minis, but I wanted to make sure I understand the intent correctly that after the first clone dies you can try to make a second clone. Then the question about once per game abilities came up because a figure I'm about to use him with has a power that is similar in nature to a once per game power (Rocksteady).

[MrNobody]

I see “the chosen hero becomes Jackal’s Experiment” as it beung the same figure. (rules-wise)

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Technically speaking, if you choose a human or mutate for the power at the start of the game, once it's destroyed it remains destroyed. The hero you place on the board as the Experiment is a new/different hero with the species of clone instead of human or mutate. A rules lawyer could try to continue rolling to create new clones while another clone was still in play. I didn't think that was the intent, since it doesn't mention what to do for the new minis, but I wanted to make sure I understand the intent correctly that after the first clone dies you can try to make a second clone. Then the question about once per game abilities came up because a figure I'm about to use him with has a power that is similar in nature to a once per game power (Rocksteady).

It's actually not, as far as I can tell. It just seems to be a resurrection power that also changes the character's species and causes you to take control of it. Think of it this way:


1) If Thanos comes back, does he count as a different figure?
2) If Superman is turned into a Simian by the E-Ray, is he now a different figure?
3) If Spider-Man is permanently mind-controlled by Karnilla, is he now a different character in game?


If the answer to all of those is no, which it is, why would it be different for a power which is, effectively, in game terms, just doing all three of those things at once? The theme doesn't matter here - from a mechanical level, the Clone is the same as the character destroyed. If I'm missing something, please show me what I'm missing, because I can't see anything that would make me rule it the way you're doing.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Technically speaking, if you choose a human or mutate for the power at the start of the game, once it's destroyed it remains destroyed. The hero you place on the board as the Experiment is a new/different hero with the species of clone instead of human or mutate. A rules lawyer could try to continue rolling to create new clones while another clone was still in play. I didn't think that was the intent, since it doesn't mention what to do for the new minis, but I wanted to make sure I understand the intent correctly that after the first clone dies you can try to make a second clone. Then the question about once per game abilities came up because a figure I'm about to use him with has a power that is similar in nature to a once per game power (Rocksteady).

The intent was you can keep cloning them all day long, but the once per game portion definitely needs to be settled though as it is a bit of an odd case. Technically it would have already been used once per game, but you are correct in that technically it is a new unit. I do not believe that ever came up in testing and would likely drive his cost up if Torch could Supernova and then be cloned and get his powers back. We should get some other opinions on this one.

@Tornado
@johnny139
@Scapemage
@Ronin

Also snagging a few thoughts from a couple of our more Active legends and our competitive folks here.

@IAmBatman
@Spidey'tilIDie
@dok
@Soundwarp SG-1
@Dysole

[Karat]

Double post.

[Ronin]

Everything LO is saying is correct.

[Yodaking]

Following the arguments Lazy has made, I don't believe once per game powers would come back with a resurrected hero. Mephisto's power uses the language 'would be destroyed' though indicating that the hero is never actually destroyed.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Following the arguments Lazy has made, I don't believe once per game powers would come back with a resurrected hero. Mephisto's power uses the language 'would be destroyed' though indicating that the hero is never actually destroyed.

That's how I read that and is honestly probably the preference here.

As for Mephisto, I believe his would kick in first as it occurs prior to destruction and Jackal's occurs after destruction.

[Dysole]

To my knowledge, Atlaga doesn't get to bolt of witherwood when he is mind shackled because it's not player specific (and I suspect glyph of Sturla wouldn't regenerate it). I think once a game powers shouldn't regen for the fact that it is in fact the same figure (since by the wording of Jackal if you took an opponent's figure with a regeneration power your opponent wouldn't be able to use the regeneration power after you successfully rolled for the experiment).

~Dysole, observationally