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  #4489  
Old January 19th, 2015, 05:51 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

There are tournament directors all over the place - and guys playing in their own homes, with family and friends - who use the grades as a tool to devise strategies and formats suitable to their particular needs. As Jexik says, the main thing is to have fun, and if the grades help you, fantastic. Otherwise, still fantastic.

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  #4490  
Old January 20th, 2015, 04:12 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post

And Foudzing is right, I can definitely make mistakes, and that could result in a more easily 'solvable' tournament.

But again, if you and your participants are having fun, I really don't mind
The entire concept of Power Rankings is subjective. Mistakes are almost nonexistent.

Grant it, putting DW7k as an A flat (Maybe A+) would be better, but hey.

Edit: July 12 2015:

Curious to see how GenCon's 16 figure limit will impact rankings...

Last edited by yamissflash; July 12th, 2015 at 02:54 PM.
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  #4491  
Old February 11th, 2016, 03:08 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

These are great, though some of the "crap" units are the kids (and my) favourites. We will continue to play with them!

Has anyone started an official thread discussing ways to improve some of the poorer units, I posted a half idea for the Obsidian Guards in the book of OG but not experienced enough to know the cost implications or even if the ability is viable or not
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  #4492  
Old February 11th, 2016, 07:05 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Some of the highest rated units are among my least favorite to play. So I don't use them either.

The "CUC" project tweaks low-graded units to make them better. I can't remember what it stands for.

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  #4493  
Old February 11th, 2016, 08:03 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Some of the highest rated units are among my least favorite to play. So I don't use them either.

The "CUC" project tweaks low-graded units to make them better. I can't remember what it stands for.
@ekoxe1

Competitive Unit Congress: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=27657

There is the whole delta pricing scheme: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=46703

Also @lefton4ya has some excellent classic updates in his competitive unit alters: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...light=congress

Finally I almost forgot but i made some updates myself: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=48949

Hope this helps.


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  #4494  
Old February 11th, 2016, 08:11 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

great, thanks guys I figured someone would have already done something along these lines
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  #4495  
Old February 11th, 2016, 05:54 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

These Power Rankings are just for Tournament play. They don't have much bearing on Scenario play or playing "for fun."

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  #4496  
Old February 11th, 2016, 09:24 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
These Power Rankings are just for Tournament play. They don't have much bearing on Scenario play or playing "for fun."
This is somewhat true. of course you can create a scenario where any figure is great (Hato and samurai vs minons on flat ground) but for the most part some units are almost always good (4th mass, Raelin, q9) aND some are usally bad (dw7000 hato, Pelloth).

For the most part rolling more dice per turn Is good. Being able to pick your targets is good. Claiming high ground and having map control is good. Figures at the top of the charts are good at a few of those things regardless of the scenario. So even in a casual game you will like find these rankings useful if your goal is to win.


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  #4497  
Old February 11th, 2016, 10:10 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Yes, ironically I played a game not a few days ago with Hato, and he dominated simply because my opponent happened to be primarily normal/melee. But I think consistency is where the true value of the rankings lie, and while Hato counters-pun intended-many (even high-ranking) melee squads, he's useless in other matchups. Nilfheim on the other hand is almost always good.

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  #4498  
Old February 28th, 2016, 05:44 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Because the game has shaped more and more over the years, and these rankings haven't been heavily debated/molded since like 2010-2011, I wanted to give some opinions on the rankings of current day. I wanted to a while back in like June, but decided to wait until after GenCon to do so, and ended up forgetting to actually make a thought-out post of my inputs. Well, about 6 months late but here they are, better late than never…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
All right, thanks to not having to work this week, I finally updated all of the 1-liners on the front page, I think.

Let me know if you guys catch any discrepancies.

I don't plan on changing many of the grades. They seem to be close enough. Feel free to discuss more stuff at length as you please, just be aware that I'm not going to adjust it all the time, or weigh in with super long arguments on some stuff that has already been hashed out before.
^This was Jexik's first post after changing the title of this thread to asking if the rankings are complete. I don't feel the rankings are complete, as the game is forever being better learned and evolved in skill of play, and this post was awhile back in 2011; even though Heroscape's popularity isn't like it was, still, it's 2016, and we've had 4/5 GenCons since and plenty of online tournaments, so I feel there's been enough results and knowledge learned to reevaluate and further articulate the rankings. (Will the rankings every be truly 'complete'? We're not ever going to reach a point where everyone agrees 100% with every unit's rating, however I, and I'm sure many others, feel there's still some debate and changes to be brought up.) But, I absolutely agree with Jexik (and think that he basically meant) that the current rankings are accurate enough to determine what units are top tier, tournament viable, not viable, on the border of viability, or completely bottom tier; or, in other words, there's not going to be any more gigantic changes or discoveries that will alter the rankings drastically. I don't think there's a unit that is ranked more than 2 ranks away from where they should be, or at least in the higher tiers.

That being said, here are some of my opinions and potential changes I wanted to bring up:

*Note: I understand the rankings of the lower tiers aren't taken as precisely as the rest of the list, due to those units' lack of tournament viability and therefore lack of substantial results to aid in debates within the lower tiers. So most of my thoughts are on units B- or above. Also, I don't really consider the Marvel units in the same rankings; every 'scape tournament at GenCon excludes Marvel, unless it's a special Mixed Marvel event, and I think competitive Heroscape is assumed with Marvel banned. But if we were to play Mixed Marvel events, Thanos is wayyyy better than B-.

Increases:

Isamu - A -> A+; Isamu deserves to be A+, there I said it. . haha I understand reluctance to add a fourth to A+, but I really think he's there. I've seen time and time again Isamu kill an unbelievable amount of points, and clutching game after game for players who would other wise be done. I know some have said a filler unit can't be A+, but that's a silly argument, just because you're not building your army around a unit doesn't mean that unit can't be amazing. And, if Q9 was 10pt., he'd be well beyond A+. I understand if people don't want another A+ graded unit, but if there was one to be promoted, Isamu's it. And personally, I think there should be, because he's as overpowered.
Phantom Knights - A- -> A; Probably the most debatable of my suggestions, and I understand. The way I look at it, though, ever since the PK's arrived I've seen increasingly more of them each GenCon. They trouble so many top tier armies (4th, Stingers, 10th, Trons, etc.) and work in so many armies. They also destroy the Krav, which is huge. I think even splashing one squad of them to take care of the Krav is an solid and underused tactic. They're also nasty with the Hydra; I remember when I first saw that build from scaper_dude.
Marcu - A- -> A; Marcu's amazing. Plain and simple, he's amazing for 20pt. With the wound glyph being more and more apparent in glyph pools, Marcu's the perfect answer. Also lava maps seem to be less and less at GenCon in recent years. Marcu can pack a punch, and also work end games too.
Nilfheim - A- -> A; I really don't see why Nilf was bumped down to A-, he's A for sure. I don't think I need to explain but……he's arguably the next best thing after Q9 for that role, but in dragon form, which means he also can work with Greenscales and can traverse the board much better.
Tor-Kul-Na - B+ -> A-; I think dok has proven enough times Tor-Kul-Na is a powerhouse. He can be pretty crazy, especially on a road map. I wasn't sure if Nagrubs should be bumped up too, but I'm cool either way.
Eltahale - B+ -> A-;
Roman Legionnaires - B+ -> A-; Even though the Romans aren't the top melee army, they're still quite good, and possibly the most diverse out of the all-melee. I can see they're not as dominant as they were way back when, but again, they're still great. And they have Mogrimm available to them now.
Krug - B+ -> A-; Even outside an Arrow Grut army, Krug is a beast. I'm suggesting pretty much the entire Arrow Grut army to rise a grade, but despite that, Krug is definitely an A-.
Arrow Gruts - B -> B+; The Arrow Gruts aren't as good as they used to be back in the day, now with greater point total tournaments and units with tremendous defense and multiattacks, but they're still solid. The nature of bonding with strong heroes and building ranged pods still gives you great options and board position.
Blade Gruts - B -> B+; The blades aren't nearly as powerful as the heavies, but they still have a nice team with Grimnak and Nerak. Also because they're so cheap, you usually have room to add something else strong to your army (like Krav or something), possibly to make up for your low attack output.
Swog Rider - B -> B+; Going along with the Arrow Gruts, Swogs should jump up too. They also are nice with Deathchasers too.
Warriors of Ashra - B -> B+; Ashra are a bit niche, but they can be quite annoying depending on the opposing army. I think splashing them is solid, and pairing them with Phantom Knights makes a really cool balance.
Mimring - B- -> B; Also going along with the Arrow Gruts, Mimring gets a lot of unnecessary hate I feel. He's not too hefty, but he still has his use with a long ranged attack of 4 that can hit multiple things. He also can work with Greenscales.
Thorgrim - B- -> B+; It doesn't make sense to me why Thorgrim is so much lower than Finn. You can make the argument Attack has more value in a basic Knight build or a better spirit for Knight+Unique build, but Defense is great too and they have the same stats. And either way, the difference in value isn't substantial enough to have Thorgrim a whole two grades lower.
Su-Bak-Na - B- -> B+; Su-Bak-Na is a fine option for a Stinger, Divider, or Drone horde army. His 7 attack accompanied with flying can be a really useful sneak attack and asset, especially in a Divider or Drone army.
Fyorlag Spiders - C+ -> B-; the Spiders are weak but their low cost and bonding with Wyverns lets them do things. Pretty much proves that any low cost melee squad that bonds with heroes is always at least decent. Matthias has definitely proved this.
Tarn Viking Warriors - C+ -> B; Marro Warriors are pretty much always a better option, but the Tarns aren't bad. They're only 50pt. and can make some good maneuvers and do some damage.
Valguard - C+ -> B; Valguard isn't the best Warlord for the Romans to bond with, but the Romans still do, and that's a huge boon. He has 7 life with 4 defense and can hit hard. Definitely better than C+.
Otonashi - C+ -> B-; Similar to my Tarn explanation, I don't know if you should ever take her over Isamu, even if there's a lot of wild units on your opponent's side it's still debatable, but she's not terrible. It's hard to warrant a low grade for a 10pt. figure that does stuff.
Dumutef Guard - C -> B-; I think the Dumutef is above a beyond its current rank with the Death Knights now available. They become a neat hybrid three squad together, along with the air elemental.
Deathwalker 8000 - C- -> B-; The problem with the Deathwalkers is obvious, but they still can do damage. They're a decent option in a rat-heavy build, as well as other screen armies, and are especially fun to try out instead of the Q's. Not bad, I think C- is way too low.
Deathwalker 9000 - C- -> B-; See DW8K.

Decreases:

Atlaga - A- -> B+; Atlaga is good but not as great as we first thought, in my opinion. Bolt of the Witherwood is nasty if it works, but it happens once every four games. Also, against a common horde, its success isn't nearly as detrimental. So in a five-round Swiss tournament, bolting an expensive hero doesn't happen as much as you'd think.
Capuan Gladiators - B+ -> B; I just don't see it, the Steamroller isn't that powerful. It can be a beast against certain armies and against newer players, but if you go up against a player who knows what they're doing and knows how to properly space, or against a common horde, the Steamroller struggles tremendously. And I think the biggest issue with it is you really can't alter it in any way in 500pt. (I already posted my thoughts on it in here fairly recently, and most of what I just said was repeated) Maybe drop a Capuan squad and add MW + Marcu? I don't know
Crixus - B+ -> B; See Capuans. Although I could see an argument for Crixus to stay at B+, because he's so powerful 1v1 for 90pt.
Spartacus - B+ -> B; See Capuans.
Kurrok - B+ -> B; I'm not a Kurrok specialist and he's rarely seen due to the difficultly of attaining enough Elementals to run the Firestorm, and I guess other similar builds, but he's just too fragile to me. Once he's gone, you're Elemental army is nullified. But I know the Firestorm has had some good success by dok.
James Murphy - B -> B-; I don't see why James is in a different grade from Johnny, haha is Whip 12 that good? I'd put them both together, whether it's B or B-.
Marro Hive - B -> B-/C+; to me the Marro Hive is not worth it at all. It's seems decent at rebirthing, but if you do the math, you need to birth 8 stingers or 9.2 drones (assuming you'd run an all stinger or all drone army, which seem to be the best armies for the hive) for it to match not having the hive. Being that you need to roll a 13 or higher, it's not easy to surpass those numbers. Also, the hive's position and vantage point can be quite awkward depending on the map. I'd much rather just take the three squads of stingers or drones over it. Which is unfortunate because the concept of a rebirthing hive that sits in your start zone is really cool.
Feral Troll - B- -> C+; This dude just gets eaten alive by common squads.
Emirroon - B- -> C+; Emirroon's summoning ability is helpful to build your Elf setup, but Raelin is way better for the 80pt. And in an Elf Wizard army, you don't have much leeway.
Werewolf Lord - B- -> C+; This guy has some cool abilities, but the fact is, your spending 140pt. on something that has its use against heroes - the same issue Sujoah has. Wolves bond with him, but the army lacks cost efficiency and struggles heavily against squads.
Zettian Guards - B- -> C; The Zettians have 7 defense, and that's about it. The 70pt. spent just doesn't give you enough power.
Master Win Chiu Woo - C+ -> C-; Master Woo seems decently strong, but he's pricey and works with the Monks. So when it comes down to it, the army you make doesn't have much room for stronger units because the monks cost 80pt. a squad. To field Woo and two squads of Monks, that's 300pt. out of your army, which is way too much to spend on low tier units.
Pelloth - C -> D; I don't think I really need to explain why Pelloth is so bad. He works with the Drow, who are so-so, and requires you to destroy them (which are 23.3pt. a piece, decently expensive), and doesn't do much damage in doing so (he's kinda like DW7K).
Empress Kiova - C- -> D/F; I personally feel Empress Kiova is of the worst units in the game. She's really similar to Woo; She seems like an ok cheerleader but the squad that she works with is overpriced and fragile. The Imperium are the most expensive squad in the game; it's a whopping 370pt. to run both her and just two squads of them, which is even worse than Woo and the Monks. To run the Imperium, you desperately need to make the most of your other points. Even then it's pretty impossible. Kiova really doesn't do anything on her own either.

Those are my suggestions as of right now. I'd love to hear feedback and discussion!

Edit: Also, I think my biggest suggestion to the rankings is to merge the C categories. After going through the list and analyzing ranks, I feel like we as a community should deviate the lower graded units into C, D, and F grades. It feels like the difference between C and C+ isn't nearly as large as B+ and A- or A- and A. Like, done simply, C+ and C could be combined to C, and C- and D could be combined to D. Or, more rigorously, go through each unit in F-C+ and recategorized them into F, D, and C.

Last edited by Cleon; March 15th, 2016 at 01:31 AM.
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  #4499  
Old February 28th, 2016, 01:53 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

I agree that Mimring is for sure underestimated, but I don't think that means he is underrated. For how many people own Mimring, he sure doesn't see much play. My dad and I are the only people I have ever seen play him with Arrow Gruts.

The biggest issue with Mimring from a strictly competitive perspective is how he doesn't really win matchups for the Arrow Gruts. He's long range and podding, just like the Archers are. That was fine for my purposes at GenCon; I think that pod armies are exceptionally good for Reverse the Whip. But for a strictly "come up with the strongest army you can" perspective, Mimring is almost always strictly worse than Krug in terms of how many matchups you are favored in. You already have enough range to draw most armies in. You don't need the extra kiting, you need the big hitter to crush people who get too close.

Mimring's strength is actually present in almost every matchup: people have no idea how to play around Fireline. It's so different from every other power in the game that people just don't even think about it. It's also decently hard to prevent if you are running at a pod, which the Arrow Grut army wants you to do. I had some massive Firelines vs. a 4th Mass army when I took Mimring to the Main Event. The biggest advantage of Mimring's Fireline is that is so punishing that a single overextension into it can cost the game. If you torch four figures after your opponent forgets you have him in your army, the game is basically over, even if they remember to play around Fireline in the future. I'm a big fan of unexpected and hard to play around figures that punish the opponent quickly for mistakes. I did the same thing again this year with my "Wait in the startzone and fire" army of Taelord/Raelin/Marro Warriors/Redcoats.

Despite this, I think Mimring is properly rated, at least compared to the Arrow Gruts. He should be a letter grade lower, since Arrow Grut armies using Mimring are worse than Arrow Grut armies using Krug. If Mimring were actually played a decent amount, people would learn how to play against Fireline and he would be a bad choice.

TL;DR: Keep Mimring ranked low so he keeps being good
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:37 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

I've long felt that we have too many units rated in the B/B+/A- Range. And when changes were made to rankings, not enough units get downgraded. This includes Dok's C3V inclusive Power Rankings too.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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