The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Astroking112]

I'm not a huge fan of putting Frenzy on a bonding unit, since you're already essentially getting "free" turns.

I really like @superfrog 's suggestion to rename the power to Spiked Shield Defense--that makes the connection to One Shield Defense much easier for me to remember.

Also, just to be clear, did you intend for people to be able to take Zogross and Drak in a Greenscale build? I'm sure you're aware, but only one of them can bond with their brethren per game, so I don't think they'd be very easy to use together (although I've always liked the idea of having two "choose one" options in a bonding army, and two cheaper Lizardfolk could make that possible).

[Sheep]

Answers in Dark Red.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I'm not a huge fan of putting Frenzy on a bonding unit, since you're already essentially getting "free" turns.

I think it's no really no different than bonding with Krug for a double attack, Nilfy for Ice Shard, etc. Where those figures lack in the fact that they can't take a-whole-nother turn, Drak lacks in the fact that it's only a 25% chance of him doing so.

I really like @superfrog 's suggestion to rename the power to Spiked Shield Defense--that makes the connection to One Shield Defense much easier for me to remember.

Definitely going to make this change.

Also, just to be clear, did you intend for people to be able to take Zogross and Drak in a Greenscale build? I'm sure you're aware, but only one of them can bond with their brethren per game, so I don't think they'd be very easy to use together (although I've always liked the idea of having two "choose one" options in a bonding army, and two cheaper Lizardfolk could make that possible).

Nope! But they both have other bonding options that you could play both of them in an Army. My personal favorite Drak/Zogross army is:

130 Drak Whiptail
250 Zogross Hardscale
280 Armoc Vipers x2
500 Greenscales x2
500pts/14hexes

Greenscales choose Drak and Armocs bond with Zogross. Keep in mind that even though Zogross isn't the Greenscales King, he still earns Tribal Protection from them. For the record, I don't think I ever said it's easy to trigger that sequence, I just said it's a fun sequence to watch when you can trigger it.

[Scytale]

This is definitely an improvement. Some thoughts.

I don't like Predator. I don't think it fits the overall theme of the unit, nor the general theme of Predators. Is that just there for the extra synergy? If so, change it.

I'm not sold on Relentless either. It's not bad, but it doesn't really feel like that will match how the unit plays. Again, is it just for synergy? It's not a bad extra synergy; he would fit well with the Death Knights. But as a personality I would like Wild or Ferocious would fit better.

I'm with superfrog that 5 Attack feels high. I won't call it wrong, but for a medium figure with a club it doesn't quite click. I would think that Frenzy is already a decent combat boost. This is a point that may cause it to fail in Inner Sanctum Review.

Combat Challenge is a bad power. That's not your fault. As written, a figure standing next to both Tandros and Drak would be unable to attack, period. That's something we could tackle in Editing, though. We would either make a new power or modify it as superfrog says.

Spiked Shield Defense is a tad complicated (essentially being two powers in one), but not bad. I'm ok with it.

[bmon]

I like him as Relentless. It rings true with Frenzy and the sculpt as well.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by bmon

I like him as Relentless. It rings true with Frenzy and the sculpt as well.

This is my though process for Relentless. Frenzy figures so far in classic either have a Relentless or Precise personality.

As I read more on Lizards I guess they aren't really considered Predators? If that's the case, as sad as it makes me to lose bonding with the Spiders, that'll be a necessary change. What class would be recommended?

[Astroking112]

I'd agree with Relentless fitting a Frenzy power as well, although Wild, Ferocious, or anything else could probably carry out the same meaning and avoid bonding with the Death Knights if you ever want to remove that synergy.

As for his class, I'm somewhat fond of Warlord for the added Armoc option, but that's stepping on Zogross' toes and should probably be avoided. Warrior or any other generic class would likely be fine.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Gruoark

Missed the main conversation but didn't have much to add. I remember watching this guy's progress through the SoV his first go around, and he seems like a really fun figure. I get the hesitation on making a Troll army, but I think this guy does so in a fun, thematic way, assuming he's balanced for his strongest scenarios with all the regeneration.

Drak Whiptail

Also not a fan of Predator for the class (Warrior fits better IMO and would have interesting synergy with Zogross), and also feel that 4 attack is better than 5 for the sculpt. 4 is still strong and fits the club better. And I'll echo that I'm not sold on Relentless for the personality. I'm not against the bonding per se, but it feels forced to me here ... can't put my finger on why exactly. While I'm not completely against Frenzy on the card, I feel that Battle Frenzy would fit better on a bonding hero while still capturing what you're going for with the unit.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

...While I'm not completely against Frenzy on the card, I feel that Battle Frenzy would fit better on a bonding hero while still capturing what you're going for with the unit.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here for why Frenzy feels wrong to me on a bonding unit. I generally think of the bonding figures as generals leading their armies into the fray, but Frenzy evokes a lone warrior barging into battle and abandoning the rest of their army in a sense of bloodlust.

To be fair, Drak is not a protective Warlord like Zogross (and giving him this theme does more to distinguish the two), but Combat Challenge and Spiked Shield Defense do give the unit a defensive feel (combined with the Greenscales' need to stay within range of him for their bonuses) that just makes Frenzy feel off. Battle Frenzy, on the other hand, feels to me like it conveys the same theme while avoiding this.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

To be fair, Drak is not a protective Warlord like Zogross (and giving him this theme does more to distinguish the two), but Combat Challenge and Spiked Shield Defense do give the unit a defensive feel (combined with the Greenscales' need to stay within range of him for their bonuses) that just makes Frenzy feel off. Battle Frenzy, on the other hand, feels to me like it conveys the same theme while avoiding this.

I don't have a problem with Frenzy, really, as this seems less of a "commander" guy and more of a "lead by club" type. But I still have to agree with Astroking. Battle Frenzy feels like a perfect fit. Not just thematically, but charging into a group and locking down multiple figures will be his thing, making the full turn from Frenzy less valuable.

As for class, I actually wouldn't mind Warlord personally. Warrior is a fine choice. Brute works too.

[Dad_Scaper]

It's not the fault of this community collectively, of course. You can only work on your own mini. But I, for one (though there are others), would love to see something other than high fantasy out of this community. I mean, we would love it. I love me some meat & potatoes, but not every day, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I think you've hit the nail on the head here for why Frenzy feels wrong to me on a bonding unit. I generally think of the bonding figures as generals leading their armies into the fray, but Frenzy evokes a lone warrior barging into battle and abandoning the rest of their army in a sense of bloodlust.

To be fair, Drak is not a protective Warlord like Zogross (and giving him this theme does more to distinguish the two), but Combat Challenge and Spiked Shield Defense do give the unit a defensive feel (combined with the Greenscales' need to stay within range of him for their bonuses) that just makes Frenzy feel off. Battle Frenzy, on the other hand, feels to me like it conveys the same theme while avoiding this.

When I started Drak, I obviously wanted another Lizardfolk Hero, but I more-so wanted a standalone Lizardfolk Hero that somehow indirectly helps the Greenscales (and whatever other bonding options). Frenzy was the start of the standalone part. This isn't a guy that really cares about his bonding options. The bonding options just happen to be there. He's a guy that wants to get his club bloody first and for most, even if it means running from his Squaddies. Combat Challenge just happened to be a good way to tie him to Zogross and his bonding options while still keeping the theme. He's relentless on the battlefield so much so that engaged enemies have to target him. Don't think so much that Spiked Shield Defense is a defensive ability. Yes it is, but Drak is a pro at blocking and stabbing with his shield. He never stops fighting even when he's not using his club. Speaking of which, don't forget he wields that heavy club, too.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I don't have a problem with Frenzy, really, as this seems less of a "commander" guy and more of a "lead by club" type. But I still have to agree with Astroking. Battle Frenzy feels like a perfect fit. Not just thematically, but charging into a group and locking down multiple figures will be his thing, making the full turn from Frenzy less valuable.

As for class, I actually wouldn't mind Warlord personally. Warrior is a fine choice. Brute works too.

This would be the only reason I would change Frenzy to Battle Frenzy. I think Frenzy fits the theme more because Drak doesn't care about his squad mates, but Scytale makes a good point that engaging, locking down, and fighting figures is his specialty. Frenzy lets him do that at a better pace (especially early game if you can hit it), but I would like to test how often during mid-game that it matters if he its a Frenzy. If he's engaged to two figures, kills one and hits Frenzy, it's essentially the same thing as Battle Frenzy (although more decision making because you could disengage to go after a bigger target). Speaking of decision making, that is something Frenzy adds to Drak. Yes, his theme is to leave his squads, but do you want to do that? Do you want to leave your Greenscales without the protection of their leader? Frenzy adds more strategy to Drak than Battle Frenzy.

I don't want to put Warrior as his class because that steps on the toes of what Combat Challenge accomplishes with Zogross, so I think I'm going to go with Warlord for now. He is a war *king* after all, and I like how that gives him bonding options to the Armocs and Romans. With Frenzy, I like him bonding with the Armocs because he can stay up with them, and the Armocs and Romans also bond with Mittens who boosts Frenzy. I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but since both are Relentless assuming Drak has Frenzy, Mittens would now be a viable option for the Death Knights since him and Drak could duo.

So I would like to take this back to testing intent on testing how much more Frenzy adds to his ability to lock down figures than Battle Frenzy. I have a lot of reasons for liking Frenzy, but if it is too powerful Battle Frenzy will have to do.

I'm also going to lower his attack to 4, change the title of Shield Spike to Spiked Shield Defense, add the extra phrase to Combat Challenge to acknowledge two CC figures adjacent to the same figure, and change his Class to Warlord. I'm also lowering points to 120 to accommodate for the decrease in attack, although I'm sure it could be meaningless and I'll boost it up to 125 or 130 again during testing. This is what that brings us to:

Drak Whiptail
Ullar

Lizarfolk
Unique Hero
Warlord
Relentless
MEDIUM 5

Life 5
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 3
Points 120

FRENZY (with potential to change to Battle Frenzy)
After you take a turn with Drak Whiptail, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Drak Whiptail.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent’s figure that is adjacent to Drak Whiptailatleast one figure with the Combat Challenge special power attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack Drak Whiptaila figure with the Combat Challenge special power.

SPIKED SHIELD DEFENSE
When rolling defense dice, if Drak Whiptail rolls at least one shield, the most wounds Drak Whiptail may take for this attack is one. If Drak Whiptail recieves no wounds from a normal attack and the attacking figure is adjacent to Drak Whiptail, that figure receives one wound.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

When I started Drak, I obviously wanted another Lizardfolk Hero, but I more-so wanted a standalone Lizardfolk Hero that somehow indirectly helps the Greenscales (and whatever other bonding options). Frenzy was the start of the standalone part. This isn't a guy that really cares about his bonding options. The bonding options just happen to be there. He's a guy that wants to get his club bloody first and for most, even if it means running from his Squaddies. Combat Challenge just happened to be a good way to tie him to Zogross and his bonding options while still keeping the theme. He's relentless on the battlefield so much so that engaged enemies have to target him. Don't think so much that Spiked Shield Defense is a defensive ability. Yes it is, but Drak is a pro at blocking and stabbing with his shield. He never stops fighting even when he's not using his club. Speaking of which, don't forget he wields that heavy club, too.

This is why I'm not a big fan of plain Frenzy here. Especially as a Warlord (although I do like the added potential for a Frenzying Hero in Armoc builds), it just feels at thematic odds with the rest of the unit. I still like the overall direction of Drak (and the more aggressive theme of him), but I thought it prudent to note that I feel Frenzy is more of an inherently standalone power than one associated with a bonding hero.