Retchets vs. Ninja Vanish (Official Answer)

[Su_Nan]

If you break down the two powers into a turn basis for the attack/defense, you get this.

Rechets attack with all skulls or "When rolling attack dice against a small or medium figure, if a Rechet of Bogdan rolls a skull on every die,.."

The Ninja then gets attacked with at least one skull and then tries to disappear or "If a Ninja of the Northern Wind is attacked with a normal attack and at least one skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die to disappear."

When successful the Ninja gets to move four spaces away and negates the damage or "If you roll a 12 or higher, that Ninja of the Northern Wind takes no damage and instead may move up to 4 spaces."

Now the ninja should be alive, but since no damage was actually taken because the attack does not cause damage, it destroys immediately (says so on the card, you read it a hundred times it still says every time).

In a nut shell you get an all skulls attack that the ninja's do get to disappear from but then when they are done disappearing they would immediately die. What we are debating is whether or not hasbro believes that destroying a figure is a means to cause damage. Or one step further you could say that Lethal Sting cause damage to your army by destroying a figure and then the ninja can avoid that kind of damage but it would be more on the lines of rule lawyering and then it would get out of control by that point.

[Riggler]

Outside the flavor of a fun debate and all Monopoly references aside, I'll post the conclusion I came to in one of the other threads which I linked to in the first post.

That is the reason why this debate cannot be settled without a ruling from Hasbro. Based on somantics and English Grammer, including the modifiers of nouns, compound predicates, etc. (I was an English major), there cannot be a logical conclusion reached based on the wording of these powers and the rules of the Heroscape game as they are set out in the rulebook(s).

Because effectively, both powers activate at the EXACT same time. And both powers are in 100% CONFLICT with each other. Therefore, according to the rules, one would roll a d20 to decide which power took effect first. When this came up in my game, that is how we played it. No other conclusion can be reached from a somantic/grammer standpoint.

Of course rolling a d20 to decide an element is never a satisfactory answer, especially when it relates to figure powers. That is why I've submitted the question to Hasbro.

[Zorgophlats]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

It would be more on the lines of rule lawyering and then it would get out of control by that point.

I think this thread has reached that point

On a more serious note, Riggler. Now that I see your point coming from an English Major, I better understand where you are coming from. What I saw from most of the posts "Ninjas Die" were just that. Ninjas Die. No logic, no reason. From "Ninjas Live" I saw outlines and arguments trying to show why we believe our point to be correct. This is why my last post had a negative edge to it. I see now what my mood was. I'm sorry if anybody got offended by it.

Your last argument has moved me to the d20 camp. At least until an official ruling comes down. The English Language is exactly what this discussion is about (as I also noted, sarcastically.) If it comes down to Ninjas Die, I wont be happy. But rules are rules. Ninjas Live? I wont shove it in your face.

I did read that Brunak thread. I wasn't happy with that ruling either. But in the end, this is just a game. I hope everybody here can live with a d20 roll until Craig & Co. get the time to answer we little people here on this site.

[southwest ninja]

ninjas die? we cant die! we live forever!!!!!!*







*forever is only forever unless we are attacked by a successful lethal sting

[Jexik]

I think rolling a d20 to decide which goes first can be a satisfactory answer to some questions. It's the only way to solve the 'both players get The Drop on the same round,' problem, and the 'Wannok Glyph+Lava Field' problem. I think that this situation is a lot like those.

Or we can use the Munchkin rules to decide the issue on a case by case basis. The owner of the figures/house that are being used is right!

[Oyhedwig]

The ninjas die. The Rechets have a chance of not being summoned at all. The ninjas are on the board the entire game. The ninjas can disappear at any time they are attacked with a normal. The Rechets can only Lethal Sting after they are summoned.

I guess my point in this is: the Lethal Sting is the Rechets big thing. Without it, they would not be as worthy a draft pick. I don't believe the designers would want any small or medium be able to trump their sting. This includes Isamu, Spiderman, Venom, etc. If three skulls are rolled, these figures are destroyed immediately. That's the risk of fighting the Rechets. The risk for the attacker is, the Rechets may not be summoned. The reward for taking that risk is the Lethal Sting.

I tried to get this point across as coherently as possible. I hope I succeeded.

[DoesntCompute]

Lethal Sting
When rolling attack dice against a small or medium figure, if a Rechet of Bogdan rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice and is immediately destroyed.

Disappearing Ninja
If a Ninja of the Northern Wind is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die to disappear. If you roll 1-11, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 12 or higher, that Ninja of the Northern Wind takes no damage and instead may move up to 4 spaces. Ninjas of the Northern Wind can disappear only if they end their disappearing move not adjacent to any enemy figures.
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Here's my take...
If a Rechet rolls all skulls, they are inflicting 3 damage from the skulls rolled AND triggering the Lethal Sting ability which makes it so the defender can't roll defense dice and is destroyed.

The Ninja rolls to disappear because of their ability. If they are successful, they take no damage. This negates the 3 damage inflicted by the skulls that were rolled. Because of the Lethal Sting, they are not allowed to roll defense dice to prevent that damage but they don't need to to stop the damage. They are still effected by the 'destroy' part of Lethal Sting and will die.

Effect of rolling 3 skulls..........................Result of Disapear
3 damage.............................................Damage negated
LS - cannot roll defense dice...................No change
LS - figure is destroyed..........................No change

I have a feeling that there will be a unit coming out that will be able to ignore any 'destroy' types of abilities. Lethal Sting will be good against those figures because they destroy AND make it so the defender cannot roll defense dice.

Chomp destroys a figure without inflicting damage so the Ninja wouldn't be able to disappear.
Maul makes it so you can't roll defense but the Ninja can disappear to avoid it.

Lethal Sting combines the effects of Chomp and Maul.

[angelsf]

Lethal Sting
When rolling attack dice against a small or medium figure, if a Rechet of Bogdan rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice and is immediately destroyed.

---

Hello, world! Long time listener...

What if \"... and is immediately destroyed\" was added to the text simply to indicate that even if the attacked figure has more than 3 life, it\'s life is reduced to zero as a result of the Lethal Sting. (Without the concluding phrase, only 3 wounds would be suffered - as in Maul.)

I don\'t know if that is all the designers were trying to accomplish (or instead intended the words \"immediately\" and/or \"destroyed\" to have special significance - as \"destroyed\" does in other cases). But if they meant no more, then the Ninjas can disappear to safety - not \"damaged,\" and therefore certainly not \"destroyed.\"

Until clarification, I like the \"d20 roll-off\" as suggested above!

ASF

[Riggler]

I got this from Wizards of the Coast today.

Hi there xxx,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support.

I'm currently awaiting that answer as we speak. Craig's been pretty busy of late, but I'll remind him again. We appreciate your patience while we work on this for you.


Take Care and Good Gaming!

[Zorgophlats]

WOW!

WotC finally admitted that they don't know everything.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Zorgophlats

WOW!

WotC finally admitted that they don't know everything.

WHAT?! Oh wow, this...this is shocking. I have to go sit down. Wait, I am sitting down. I don't feel well. I need to reevaluate my life.

[gniknomad]

Hello, I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but I didn't see it anywhere. I was previously in the camp that the Ninja could go ahead and roll for the vanish until I notice one subtle difference:

Has anyone noticed that the Ninja Vanish says: If a Ninja of the Northern Wind is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled,

Whereas Isamu's card states: If Isamu is attacked and at least 1 skull is rolled.

Isn't the "Lethal Sting" a "special power" when all skulls are rolled and is no longer a "normal attack". I know that Heroscape.com has it listed as a "special power". So this clears up the question, at least for me, whether the Ninjas (of northern wind) get to roll for vanish or not. Since it is not a normal atack when all skulls are rolled; I would the Ninjas cannot roll for vanish.

As far as Isamu, the question still remains because his simply states if he is "attacked". It doesn't say it has to be a normal attack. So this seems to leave him at least open to the option of being able to roll for vanish still.

And I know, I know; we're waiting for a response from Hasbro or WotC, but with all the transitioning they are going through now; it may be quite a while before we get an official (and correct) answer on this.