Election Day: Have You Voted?

[Augray]

Originally Posted by kenjib

Good analysis and thanks for your support. Another trend to factor in is our household debt to savings ratio, trade balance, and budget deficit, all of which have nosedived during recent years. All of these factors have been pointing toward the theory that our economy has been running on the fumes of past and future success - we've cashed in all of our checks and are now burning credit (which will eventually come due). In essence, we've spent our savings and we are now spending the money of our children to keep up the lifestyle that we want today. Again this points toward an economy that is sacrificing long term stability for short term benefit.

Much of this was said during the 80's as well, by the 90's the budget deficit was gone.

[kenjib]

Originally Posted by Augray

Much of this was said during the 80's as well, by the 90's the budget deficit was gone.

Cool. Let's put Bill Clinton back in office to fix it again. *poke*

[skyknight]

I agree with a few things you have said Euryon but I also know things in my personal life may very well change now. I do hope that perhaps the Democrats have a strategy in Iraq but up to this point they have not really stated one. I am about to have more junk slammed down my throat than I have in my life and frankly it scares me a bit. Lets look at a few things here.

First you say America is outsourcing all of our jobs. True, many manufacturing jobs have been lost to other countries though some nations build their equipment right here in the US. For the first time in my life I have had the privelege of belonging to a union. Since I began three months ago I do not belong to the union yet, probationary period and all, but have manged to pay dues to them every month so far. On top of that I have been warned three different times by fellow workers that I need to slow down production purposefully. They are the biggest friggin bullies ever and I will not be cowed by them. This also means though that I will never advance in the Union jobs because I am not a team player. Thats ok though I am trying to get into the company itself.

Does a guy deserve 20 dollars an hour for driving a forklift????? No way. I can honestly say I hate Union now more than I have ever hated it before and I do believe it is responsible for alot of our lost jobs.


Next...Quite likely now I will never have the oppurtunity to plan my own financial well being at retirement with my own money I have to pay into a broken social security system used to keep people in check. Why do I have to pay into a retirement system that does not work when I am much more capable of making my money work for me. Now though I get to pay into a phantom fund for the rest of my life.

You also stated America should be a world leader. I agree. We are generally a decent people and we try to do right by others. Why? Because we are a spiritual nation that does believe in the goodness of mankind. The party that is now in control is also home to the most vocal Secular progressives the world has ever seen. This may be a bit of a stretch but what happens if God is completely removed form the public view. What happens if it gets to the point that we no longer teach our children to be kind to eachother because God wants this. What happens when American citizens put their own well being and happiness above that of all else including God. Religion keeps alot of otherwise nasty people in check.

This country is now open to being morally gutted. As I stated above we stand to lose all things that are religous in all public forums if they have anything to do with the Goverment. We are about to possibly have gay marriage jammed down our throat. Flag burning is ok, Welfare is a right and privelege. We have a whole set of Liberal high schools in California righ tnow who are not keeping score at any of their sports events because competition is wrong and defeat hurts self esteem. I will soon get to pay for everyone elses health care as well as my own as we move more torwards socialism. I get to pay 17 million a year here in NY state so that we can translate all homework assignments in NYC into the 11 major languages so parents can understand their childrens work. And the immigration issue is very likely to be put even further back on the burners now.

Since the Republicans have been in office I now recieve a higher federal tax refund than ever in my life. My wife and I combined do not make a 100k so that tax cuts for the rich thing is a bit of a falsehood. Meanwhile on that same income in a Liberal state, NY that I have the joy of living in, has decided I actually owe them a bunch of money every year.

I live in the NE United States which is primarily Democratic. We pay the highest taxes in the nation. I can expect to see yet another rise in my property taxes I imagine now to fund our multitude of social programs we have here in NY. I have every right to own property in the US, yet do not pay your taxes and your land is siezed. So basically I get to rent from the Democrats up here.

Many of you do not know I was at one time in my life a Democrat, after raising kids and serving in the military under both a Republican President and a Democrat I quickly changed my mind. You think our boys in the Middle East are unprepared now???? Wait till the Dems get done. My budget was so bad under Clinton I once had to fabricate a mop bucket handle into a brake rod on my helicopter to get it airborne again after three months. And you want to talk about low wages....you have no idea unless you were there.

There are a hundred other social and finacial programs I could go on about but it would take far to much time. I just hope that now that the House and possibly the Senate are run by Democrats we as Republicans do not lay the death of every soldier from here on out onto your doorstep. I even heard the libs blaming our President for the Hurricanes over the last couple of years. We had best hope the conservative party is not spiteful or else things may get real ugly real quick here in the good ol USA.

Oh yes by the way NY is bleeding population under Democrat control right now. Why because high taxes are forcing both people and buiseness out. There are very few expanding areas right now in this state. Well the biggest one is the wine industry. It is drawing millions to NY every year and is one of the only thriving industries in NY. The democrats have just recently submitted for a 400% tax increase on the production of alcohol per gallon. That is why we are losing our jobs. Find someone making a profit and then strangle it as quick as possible. Pure and simple.

[kenjib]

Originally Posted by skyknight

You also stated America should be a world leader. I agree. We are generally a decent people and we try to do right by others. Why? Because we are a spiritual nation that does believe in the goodness of mankind. The party that is now in control is also home to the most vocal Secular progressives the world has ever seen. This may be a bit of a stretch but what happens if God is completely removed form the public view. What happens if it gets to the point that we no longer teach our children to be kind to eachother because God wants this. What happens when American citizens put their own well being and happiness above that of all else including God. Religion keeps alot of otherwise nasty people in check.

Do you know many secular progressives? Do you know what secular humanism is? You are painting a very broad and ugly brush that in my experience is completely inaccurate. Do you honestly believe that I don't teach my children to be kind to each other? It's a pretty absurd statement. Furthermore, putting ones own well being and happiness above that of all else is much more a conservative secular trait (libertarian) than a progressive secular one. Sure there are some nasty secular people, but there are lots of nasty people in the house of god as well alongside all of the really great christians that I admire. Some of these nasty people even run the churches. In my experience I've found that nastiness does not discriminate. Nasty people come in all shapes and sizes. Each and every one of us would do well to take the time, reflect on ourselves, and find ways to become a better person.

Why can't you just respect my dignity, my morality, and my humanity? You aren't talking in abstract here. You are talking about me, personally, and you are saying some pretty unkind things.

EDIT: I do totally understand your other concerns though. Unfortunately that's just the nature of our democracy. I could go on a similar rant about how my tax money has been siphoned off to subsidize corporate pillaging, how my civil liberties have been eroded at an astonishing rate, how I have been forced into paying for a war I consider illegal and immoral, how morality has been pushed down my throat by hypocritical and immoral people, and many other things. I just accept it though. We all have different views and different opinions on how things should work. In democracy we have to accept that things will not always go our way, but sometimes they will.

[skyknight]

No I am not Kenji and if it came across that way I am sorry. By no means was I painting with that broad of a brush. And you misread my statement above. I said religion keeps alot of nasty people in check. I never said anything about Democrats or Republicans with that statement. Since it seems that church goers are a bit higher in the Conservative party it was more aimed at them.

Do I think that some of the Democrats are full of morality, yes I do. Do I believe that many of the things I abhore in society are supported by the libs? Yes I do. Those things I find completely and totally distasteful such as abortion, gay marriage, welfare, clean needle programs... these are not my parties issues.

Granted the Republicans have their faults, many of them are not worth the air they breathe. But for the most part they stand for many of the things I believe in that generally revolve around a hard working, God Fearing, militarily strong nation. Those are my kind of folks. Not those in San Fran who refuse to let the USS San Fransisco dock in the bay as a museum because they believe it will portray a false sense to what the city is about. Do you realize in a poll last year something like 40% of that city said they would be happy with the complete removal of the US military. I will never find common ground with folks like that.

[Euryon]

At the risk of alienating myself from everyone - I believe American politics in the whole needs a massive overhaul.

A 2-party system, for starters, is pretty limiting. You are only offered black and white; and it quickly becomes easy to paint all Republicans (when they are right leaning) as ignorant fascists, and Democrats (when they are are centre-right, which, lets be fair, is about as left as the US ever gets) as liberal commies who want to give money to paedophiles and terrorists.

The method of voting being so manipulated by media is utterly gobsmacking to us conservative Europeans. We by no means have it right, but smear campaigns are what we do when bored; but spin is a word used in US politics more often than policy, which is a little disparring.

The US, in my opinion, has a lot of tweaking to do its system - 1776 simply changed the word King to President.

Anyway; thats a general view, and I recognise it isnt going to evolve in the next few years (hopefully in our lifetimes - as im hoping my own political model will further evolve - please notice how I believe evolution is a good thing - do away with the bad, embrace the good, which is very different to revolution, which I Don't particularly advocate in this instance)

Originally Posted by Augray

Is this really the dollar? Or, rather incredibly cheap labor overseas?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Outsourcing is both an economic and social issue; it is not a cause of weak economy but a symptom. Many countries experience outsourcing - but most European countries actively counter it with immigrant labour markets and trade policies; something the Bush adminstration decided not to do.

And Skyknight - I dont belive for a second the Democrats will make the US too much better. I know they are riddled with their own issues; but their general manifesto *could* and *should* benefit the US globally. Alas many people will suffer with taxes and so on; but, for example, my fiancée (who is an American living in Ohio), as a single parent, has been rimmed, raped and bullied out of so much capital down to republican legislation due to various reasons; and did so much better for herself under the Democrats; there IS a demographic that will benefit from Dem's in power; as there is a demographic that benefit from conservative leaders (nominally business people and those with franchise stocks).

You will NEVER satisfy all the people.

I always base my political viewpoint on the parties manifesto. Sure the LibDems in the UK will double my taxes, sure they wont get rid of student debt; BUT they will be pro-Europe, they will stand up stiffer against the US (not in a denialist way, but, hopefully, in a check-mark way - an ally who whispers "Hey George, maybe declaring war on azerbaijan will just be a bit too much, eh?"), they will improve the NHS, welfare system and the rights of small-business holders. Corporations will be taxe dmore, and H&S and EqOps policies will become ever more stringent. Our liberties will be aligned with the European model. Our green policy will move into the 21st century. And so on and so forth...

Render unto Caesar, and all.

[Nooblar]

Originally Posted by skyknight

...many of them are not worth the air they breathe...

*cough*McCain*cough*

[kenjib]

Can you accept, then, that the people with whom you disagree with are also people with high moral standards but who simply have a different vision of how to achieve that end?

You said "this country is now open to being morally gutted." That certainly doesn't indicate that you respect my moral values at all. I actually really respect your opinions and the way you think things should work, even if I disagree. I might think it would be a bad direction for our country to head in, and create an environment in which I would be less happy to live in, but I certainly hope that I would never say that the way you would like things to work equate with "being morally gutted."

[Karkadinn]

I'll let the link do the talking for me.

http://www.forbes.com/home/economy/2...017median.html

[CupidsArt]

Well....at least Rumsfeld is going to be gone now,

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by CupidsArt

Well....at least Rumsfeld is going to be gone now,

Ya I saw that news conference this AM. Damn that was fast.

[kenjib]

Originally Posted by CupidsArt

Well....at least Rumsfeld is going to be gone now,

His replacement, Robert Gates, was involved in Iran-Contra. He is also close with James Baker, who has been tasked by the administration to re-evaluate Iraq and is likely to call for a withdrawal. It's a very intrigue-laden choice.