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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #49  
Old March 20th, 2020, 09:21 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Venom, but like, the OG

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Venom (II) (240), Baron Heinrich Zemo, Shocker, Prowler (700) VS TMNT (700)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Venom (II) (240), Baron Heinrich Zemo, Shocker, Prowler (700) VS Cyclops II, Iceman, Mystique I, Blink (700)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Not the most helpful games (the first one was atrocious luck), but Venom felt good in them. Symbiote Clamber means he ideally wants to swap from target to target, and unstoppable resilience means he’s shrugging off weak blows which is fun. Never got a chance to use Lethal Protector as he was the biggest target. I probably should have put Zemo more in the action more to get a chance to use his Adhesive X Trap more and allow Venom to protect him.
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  #50  
Old March 20th, 2020, 11:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Thanks for the games, Archie! Looking alright so far.
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  #51  
Old March 21st, 2020, 06:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Results in from Jekyll:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Jekyll
NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Venom(II)

Army Test
Map: Country Road
Units: Venom(II), Daredevil(II), Spider-Man(Peter Parker) 690 VS Kingpin(II), Electro, Bullseye, Black Cat 675
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Country Road
Units: Venom(II), Black Panther, Punisher 620 VS Captain America(Steve Rogers), Giant Man, MACH-1 620
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: The Symbiote Clamber special power works extremely well. I was never lucky enough to inflict wounds using the Lethal Protector power unfortunately. I was a little skeptical about his lack of defense but it wasn't bad. I think the point cost is accurate because if he gets close enough he becomes a powerhouse.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I had a blast playing with and against Venom. For some reason in both games, Venom's team had really good rolls. The only thing I can think of that would be cool would be a counter strike for his defense rolls even if there is a slim chance. Thank you for letting me test him. Please let me know what I can improve on in my playtesting.
Asked him a follow-up question about whether or not Lethal Protector was affecting things indirectly even if he didn't do damage with it. No response yet, though.
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  #52  
Old March 21st, 2020, 06:59 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Awesome to see a new tester! Venom is looking a little strong in that first test, he really dished out a lot of damage. Second test is a little difficult to quantify, as both teams are not really maximizing their units. Punisher is only worth the increased cost at 210 if you are maximizing his Assault Rifle in some way, but he isn't using any stat boosters, carry to HG units, or screens. However, CA isn't really getting his point back by only boosting 2 allies on the other team, one of which has a single melee attack. So I guess it's a bit of a wash there. Actually, doing the math it looks like Punisher was played at 180, if Venom was tested at 240, so I guess that set up now slightly favored team Venom before any dice are rolled.
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  #53  
Old March 21st, 2020, 07:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

I'll say Venom came in really strong in my first game when paired with Red Skull as well. I'm building the map for the second game in just a minute.

Good playtest!
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  #54  
Old March 21st, 2020, 10:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Awesome to see a new tester! Venom is looking a little strong in that first test, he really dished out a lot of damage. Second test is a little difficult to quantify, as both teams are not really maximizing their units. Punisher is only worth the increased cost at 210 if you are maximizing his Assault Rifle in some way, but he isn't using any stat boosters, carry to HG units, or screens. However, CA isn't really getting his point back by only boosting 2 allies on the other team, one of which has a single melee attack. So I guess it's a bit of a wash there. Actually, doing the math it looks like Punisher was played at 180, if Venom was tested at 240, so I guess that set up now slightly favored team Venom before any dice are rolled.
Yeah, I don't think either of Jekyll's tests are super optimized. That's okay, though, I don't expect that from a completely fresh tester. It's a strong showing, but one I'm taking with a grain of salt.

Here was Jekyll's response on Lethal Protector:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Jekyll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Thanks man! Looks like a really great inaugural outing as a C3G tester!

Quick question on Lethal Protector: even though it didn't deal wounds directly, did it influence the enemy team's decision-making at all? (ie were figures attacking Venom to avoid it or trying to maneuver around him when they were attacking other figures?)
For the most part they would go direct to Venom because he had the lower defense and was an easier target. That's what made me think of the counter strike in the first place, so that the enemy could be potentially punished either way.
This squares with mine and Archie's experience with Lethal Protector: it doesn't tend to come up much because Venom demands a lot of attention already. I'm fine with keeping the power as-is though.... I'm not seeing much of a case for Venom needing a boost, and I think it's a worthwhile theme to have repped on the card even if it comes up so rarely that it's practically trinket text. (Venom proclaiming himself a protector but in fact being more focused on murderlizing people feels... on brand)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
I'll say Venom came in really strong in my first game when paired with Red Skull as well. I'm building the map for the second game in just a minute.

Good playtest!
Groovy. Looking forward to the results!
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  #55  
Old March 21st, 2020, 10:41 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Maybe try.pairing him with someone people might rather attack like Invisible Woman?
Civilians could interesting with him. They can tie up figures while Venom Clambers foe to foe.
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  #56  
Old March 21st, 2020, 11:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Groovy. Looking forward to the results!
Maybe you shouldn't be.

Quote:
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Venom (Eddie Brock)

Army Test 1
Map: Bountiful Grove (Glyph of Wannok)
Units: Team 1 (685): Venom (240), Red Skull (250), Rocket Raccoon II (195)
Team 2 (690): Luke Cage (190), Spider-Man (250), Iron Man Mk IV (250)


Pre-game thoughts: Spidey is weak to Venom. We’ll see how that goes.

Summary of the game:
Spoiler Alert!

Post-game thoughts: Venom and the Cube is a very good combo. He’s really fast and doesn’t take LEAs, so if you knock it out of his hand you better have someone immediately ready to grab it or he’s getting it again.

Spidey’s weakness to Venom never really came up, which is probably a good thing for balance.
___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Island Plane Crash (Glyph of Wannok)
Units: Team 1 (1,005): Venom (240), Red Skull (250), Super-Skrull (340), Jason Vorhees (175)
Team 2 (1,000): X-Men Classic


Pre-game thoughts:

Summary of the game:
Spoiler Alert!

Post-game thoughts: Another rough one. I’ll be honest, I don’t think Red Skull and 3 stand-alone units should be able to take out the X-Men like that. Jason was certainly useful, as most of the X-Men don’t have SS and he could control the flow of their traffic to a degree. Still, it wasn’t Jason inflicting the majority of the wounds.
___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I think he’s a serious bargain for 240, especially with Skull. Venom is really fast, meaning that even if the opponent knocked the Cube really far away, Venom can go retrieve it and be back in the fight in a turn or two, sometimes even the same turn with the combination of Clamber and the Cube’s movement option. He’s honestly just a superior Cube-wielder to Skull in a majority of ways, and once the Cube was knocked out of Skull’s hands I never wanted anyone but Venom to hold it. I think part of the problem is that I feel like he's the first design that can wield the Cube that feels actively better to take a turn with than Skull.

Outside of that, he’s still pretty good. He has a burly attack, the ability to easily gain height, and a defense subtraction option to round it all out. He’s easy enough to wound, but hard to finish off.


GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: All that aside, the design feels very cool. I really like Clamber a lot, especially how it encourages a frenetic sort of playstyle hopping from enemy to enemy. I was a bit worried Lethal Protector would wind up making him just a funky bodyguard, but he really felt much more useful charging around attacking stuff. I don’t think LP will come up all that often, but I honestly enjoy it as a weird side bonus that happens due to circumstance.
I honestly feel really guilty cause this is like...the 3rd unit in a row where I've come in as the 3rd playtester and complained about something. But that Skull combo is just really juicy and I feel like it would be a cost driver.

My thinking (if we're looking to make changes) would be to lower his base move by 1 and maybe REMIX! Unstoppable Resilience into something like Symbiote Resilience that doesn't allow him to avoid those Glyph wounds.
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  #57  
Old March 22nd, 2020, 12:19 AM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
3 stand-alone units
No such thing.

Quote:
I honestly feel really guilty cause this is like...the 3rd unit in a row where I've come in as the 3rd playtester and complained about something. But that Skull combo is just really juicy and I feel like it would be a cost driver.
Second of mine, too! Lucky I managed to sneak Hal to editing before you could get at him.

Quote:
My thinking (if we're looking to make changes) would be to lower his base move by 1 and maybe REMIX! Unstoppable Resilience into something like Symbiote Resilience that doesn't allow him to avoid those Glyph wounds.
Honestly, I could see dropping the Move 1, he's pretty fast... but like, what he actually did in your games doesn't look that scary to me for his point cost? Seems like he just used the Cube once in each game and wasn't racking up huge damage numbers.

If the Cube was still the pre-re-eval Cube and Venom could bounce wounds off himself more easily I'd be more worried, but... like, sure he can always go get the Cube back, but he's a melee attacker, he's effectively giving up an attack to do it a lot of the time.
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  #58  
Old March 22nd, 2020, 12:24 AM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Awesome to see a new tester! Venom is looking a little strong in that first test, he really dished out a lot of damage. Second test is a little difficult to quantify, as both teams are not really maximizing their units. Punisher is only worth the increased cost at 210 if you are maximizing his Assault Rifle in some way, but he isn't using any stat boosters, carry to HG units, or screens. However, CA isn't really getting his point back by only boosting 2 allies on the other team, one of which has a single melee attack. So I guess it's a bit of a wash there. Actually, doing the math it looks like Punisher was played at 180, if Venom was tested at 240, so I guess that set up now slightly favored team Venom before any dice are rolled.
Well his point totals were off in the first game as well. Venom's army had a 15 point advantage based on his list.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #59  
Old March 22nd, 2020, 01:03 AM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

He used the Cube 4 times in game 1 and 2 times in game 2. I kept a log of how many wounds he would’ve taken from the Cube that were blocked by UR. Never used the OM movement option, but he made good use of the wound and figure movement options. It also looks like he did some damage to Spidey (3 wounds maybe?) in game 1 that I didn’t tally. Sorry, that’s my bad. So it’s looking like in g1 he dealt 9 wounds total (6 attack, 1 LP, 2 Cube) to an enemy team that had 14 life.

The problem I’m seeing is that he significantly alters the standard Skull gameplay loop, which usually feels balanced around the idea that once Skull takes a wound, the Cube will probably be bouncing back and forth between teams for the rest of the game. With Venom, you almost want Skull to get wounded because Venom/Cube feels like a better combination than Skull/Cube. Like if I were to try a game 3, I might just have Skull pass the Cube to Venom and not even try using it himself.

However, I will say that some other armies would probably have a much easier time getting the Cube after Venom drops it than the Cage Crew does. I think that’s something that could balance the equation a bit that didn’t show up that much in my games. Like Flash being able to use Super Speed after attacking Venom would probably counter the strategy pretty hard.

Between Clamber and the Cube movement option, he often wasn’t giving up an attack to get the Cube back, and even if he was, he still gets to use the wound option or OM option on the Cube free of charge. It didn’t really feel like a hinderance.
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  #60  
Old March 22nd, 2020, 01:11 AM
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Re: The Book of Venom (Eddie Brock) (II) (Public Test)

Okay, gotcha. I get where you're coming from a bit better now.

I'll sleep on it.
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