The Book of Superman (Justice League)

[Dysole]

I worry about someone like Malice with that power.

~Dysole, who might think of other things

[quozl]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

That simplification is a major depowering .... It removes the entire round effect and replaces it with a single marker burn. Since he only has three markers, that's no bueno for me.

Oops! I didn't mean to take out "for the entire round". Please add that back in.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

What about:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
After any attack dice, defense dice, or the 20-sided die is rolled for any figure you control within clear sight of Superman, you may immediately remove a Justice League marker from this card and add or subtract a skull, shield, blank, or 1 from that roll. At the start of the round, if you win initiative, you may place a previously removed Justice League marker on this card. You may never have more Justice League markers on this card than were on this card at the start of the game.

Superman inspires his teammates to attack, defend, dodge, or use their powers to their fullest. IMO, that's thematic and accomplishes that goal. Flash will get a guaranteed dodge, weaker figures will get a guaranteed shield, Wonder Woman will get a guaranteed shield to block, Batman will get another guaranteed shield for MMA, Lanterns can rest a little easier on defense, Aquaman can potentially get that heal, so on and so forth. The idea being that if they an see Superman, you see the results of their attempt, and Superman's inspiration can push them that little bit further. You could put whatever static bonus at the beginning of it.

It's fine. I honestly find it a lot less interesting both in terms of gameplay and theme. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it doesn't capture my interest, really. It basically makes him a big old glyph, especially with the reloading. With that version I don't think I'd really even want a static bonus, as he's just going to reload them anyway, so I'd prefer not to have to keep track of the static bonus.

If folks love it, I'll do my best to warm up to it, but I can't currently see replacing the version in the SP with that.

The biggest point in its favor is it's straightforward, elegant, and doesn't require a lot of mechanical or wording hashing out. Which is good and makes it a good fallback option if this version doesn't end up making enough folks happy. But I'm still encouraged to try what we have.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by quozl

Oops! I didn't mean to take out "for the entire round". Please add that back in.

Heh. Not sure how to without adding in the entire clause that covers its timing (i.e. not making any of your suggested changes).

[quozl]

OK, added it back in:

When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving, before attacking with Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control within clear sight of Superman is targeted for an attack, you may choose a figure you control adjacent to the defending figure. Switch the targeted figure with the chosen figure and the attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Dysole

I worry about someone like Malice with that power.

~Dysole, who might think of other things

Brainiac and Brainiac 13 already have that power once per round, so it's not exactly uncharted ground.

As for the revision of the power:

My problem was never with the movement or 3 spaces aspect of the power. It's the fact that I can already see a lot of unthematic combos being the best combos. All of your examples Dysole were examples of who can hurt the attacker the most, with a defensive special that can damage the attacker, or those who will make it hard for the attacker to even move or hit at all. That works great for Malekith, because he's a manipulative deceptive illusionist who is all about tricking his opponent into hurting themselves, but for Superman and the Justice League it should be purely about survival and self sacrifice for your team. I don't feel the best combos to come out of this version will be Justice League related. That's my view on it anyhow. I could be wrong, but even your own examples were showing that.

But if it works it works.

[IAmBatman]

With the simple switching of spaces and not the 3 spaces of movement, units like Blob, etc., that specifically tie down enemy figures won't be as effective. Fwiw, your current complaints would've been true for the original version, Sock.

Here's how I see the theme:

Huntress recklessly leaps in front of Black Canary and ruthlessly strikes at the attacking enemy. Wonder Woman jumps in front of Green Arrow and deflects the attack with her bracelets. Zatanna pushes Batman aside and takes the full blast from Etrigan, but her Magical Defense helps her only take one wound. Atom switches places with Aquaman so that Aquaman is now one space out of the range of the attacking foe, but Atom is too small for them to see. Etc.

So there are plenty of thematic uses that will be quite good and quite thematic and will make the JL better together.

There are also, surely, some unthematic uses that will be slightly to moderately more competitive - just like there are with JL Martian Manhunter's powers. Personally, unless they significantly swing the cost, I'm going to ignore those combinations and be happy that the JL is more playable together with this power and that this power helps their powers shine. That's the compromise we made to get this thing off the ground. It's inherent in Martian Manhunter's design and it'll be inherent here no matter which way we go.

Fwiw, your approach has the same issue. Deadly Strike and Deadly Shot are two of the best uses of that power. Blob does just fine with it. There are scores of D20 users who have nothing to do with the DCU even who always enjoy a boost.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by quozl

OK, added it back in:

If the before attacking isn't needed to specify the timing of the power, I'm OK dropping it, but it does seem to lock in exactly when it happens with clarity for only two extra words. What do other folks think?

As for the switching, let's wait and figure out the proper way to interpret Malekith's power. If the correct interpretation is the one I have, that you can retarget after your initial target fails, then I want to keep the switching for sure, as there's the possibility of moving the defending figure completely out of range of the attack, which I view as a good thing.

[Yodaking]

The initial theme behind the 3 move and defend version was pretty great, but then in order to make sure the theme is actually being played and not having people use the power to run away or move up and entire army for free but never defend requires way too much text. Limiting it to only adj. figures and requiring a switch gets rid of those issues, but then the adj. clause also restricts how often it can actually be used. I know some people love the pod game play but it seems pretty lame for superheroes to go around the board holding hands because they are afraid to do anything alone. That just is not very hero like at all. Keeping all your figures adj. also makes them more vulnerable to SAs with a blast type effect. Switching places does nothing when hit with a AoE attack and many of the defense special abilities you are trying to make use of don't work vs. SA anyway. So I just see the ability as being much less useful once restricted to adj. figures.

I really like the first half of the power where it essentially give Supes the MoS power while the makers are on his card and makes adj. figures defend better too. It is actually pretty great such that I would be tempted to just ignore the marker burn aspect and leave all 3 markers on his card for the whole game. Flying around the board to drop in next to which ever ally is in need of a defense boost. Counter Strike powers where you get to count the blanks as shields is a pretty great boost all onto itself. What if we turned the static power into a aura and then simplified the marker burn.

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control within X spaces of Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, you may count up to X blanks rolled as an extra shield, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on this card. Before Superman rolls defense dice, you may remove any number of Justice League markers from this card to add one automatic shield to whatever you roll.

With that he has MoS +++ and he has some team work going on via the defense aura.

[Arkham]

I like the first part, but think the 2nd part won't be enticing enough to use. Why before you roll would you burn markers to add auto shields, effectively taking away from how effective your blanks are at the same time? You're hurting your static power, which is also a defensive boost, to give yourself a one time defensive boost that you could be getting anyway.

[Yodaking]

Yeah, I was thinking about dropping Superman from the first part to make it more likely to burn a marker when you are facing a big attack roll but then I put it back in.

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When any figure you control within X spaces of Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, you may count up to X blanks rolled as an extra shield, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on this card. Before Superman rolls defense dice, you may remove any number of Justice League markers from this card to add one automatic shield to whatever you roll.

That seems like a better trade off in static vs. burn marker effects. With that power reduced in size, I think you could add in Heat Vision or Super Breath as a 4th power.

[IAmBatman]

Same problem Sock pointed out with the last one.

And both versions are back to Über Supes saving everyone rather than inspiring teamwork or heroism.