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  #37  
Old March 14th, 2018, 06:09 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I'm just chiming in to say that I like how Kinseth's suggestion for Assassination 2 gives the Drow Assassin some room to work with Pelloth and Estivara, while skirting around the problem of shifting away a ranged unit. Letting people choose when they want to activate the X Order Marker from any Drow card sounds like it could be pretty tricky and interesting to see in action.
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  #38  
Old March 14th, 2018, 06:33 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I’ll chime in as well. I really like Kinseth’s suggested changes. It allows you to still use your Deepwyrm as the base of your army and slowly shift in assassins during development, and then have them in position to strike. It’s also nice with Assassinate ability because as mentioned, it frees up the design to include those moments when you take a turn with Pelloth, Estivara or any future Drow squad or hero designs. I like Kinseths overall direction, and think he’s nailed it pretty close if not right on the head.
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  #39  
Old March 14th, 2018, 06:54 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I kind of like Assassinate, but without the reverse bonding, I want to make Shadow Shift something that happens on the Assassin's turn, not on another figure's turn. I believe this would allow for it to work with unique heros, since you can't always just immediately shift your range away after rushing them out in the open, because you have to wait till the assassin's turn to shift them away.
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  #40  
Old March 14th, 2018, 06:57 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I think it addresses several of the big issues I saw such as Reverse Bonding happening every order marker, threat range of 12+ movement using Shadow Shift, and how much influence these guys would have over the Drow Faction where they would feel like the centerpiece of the army.(These are in my own words, and what I feel like was my take away from the discussion.)

For me, this version feels much more like an Assassin, lurking, moving, shifting, waiting for his moment to strike. I am glad several of you like it, I will leave it in Leaf_it's hands to further develop if he wishes to go in this direction.

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  #41  
Old March 14th, 2018, 07:01 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I kind of like Assassinate, but without the reverse bonding, I want to make Shadow Shift something that happens on the Assassin's turn, not on another figure's turn. I believe this would allow for it to work with unique heros, since you can't always just immediately shift your range away after rushing them out in the open, because you have to wait till the assassin's turn to shift them away.
The Kiting issue arose when you could do something like this.
-Use Ranged Drow, move up 6 spaces, attack.
-Shadow Shift that figure back 6 spaces
-Take Turn with Drow Assassin and move him back 6 spaces.
-Rinse & Repeat

In my suggested version, you could only do that sequence once. The other two times during the Round the shadow shift would leave the Drow Assassin Exposed up to the front lines since he has to stay there and cannot move again.

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  #42  
Old March 14th, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I kind of like Assassinate, but without the reverse bonding, I want to make Shadow Shift something that happens on the Assassin's turn, not on another figure's turn. I believe this would allow for it to work with unique heros, since you can't always just immediately shift your range away after rushing them out in the open, because you have to wait till the assassin's turn to shift them away.
The Kiting issue arose when you could do something like this.
-Use Ranged Drow, move up 6 spaces, attack.
-Shadow Shift that figure back 6 spaces
-Take Turn with Drow Assassin and move him back 6 spaces.
-Rinse & Repeat

In my suggested version, you could only do that sequence once. The other two times during the Round the shadow shift would leave the Drow Assassin Exposed up to the front lines since he has to stay there and cannot move again.
Making it happen on the Assassin's turn would actually make it even less viable since the ranged unit would be left at the front until your next turn, allowing the opponent to get some attacks off before you could shift the away. And just like your design, you could only save them effectively once per round with the X order marker.
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  #43  
Old March 14th, 2018, 07:18 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Interested to see, let me know when you post an updated version.

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  #44  
Old March 15th, 2018, 12:51 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Dropping in to drop my

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Before responding to all of you, my notes I made last night prior to seeing your suggestions were as follows
Quote:
Remove bonding from Shadow Shift, lower Shadow Shift's range to 4 spaces, allow Shifting to happen before or after moving with any figure that has the Hide in Darkness Ability, drop Sneak Attack, buff the Attack to 4, and drop the points to 25 for now. This makes it so that Drow range can exist, even in Common form, and as long as you don't give them HiD. It also allows for Uniques to synergize if they happen to have HiD.
I wasn't completely sure about the Hide in Darkness requirement, and I would probably have toyed with keeping it as just Common Drow as well. I wasn't sure about the reduced range to Shift either, though I expect that it's range raised some concerns,so I thought about lowering it. None of this was set in stone, it was just ideas I had to potentially rework the Assassin.
Not sure if this is still on your menu, but a HiD requirement for the shift seems weird to me. And has weird synergy with Darrak. Not bad, just weird. I think you've had better ideas suggested.

For the height limit for Shadow Shift, I know I originally said you should probably have one, but the magic element of the power persuaded me the other way. I think it would be fine without it - it only really worried me with the original design anyway. With the changes that are being toyed with now I don't think it's needed. (And now that I think of it, there's precedence with Cormin, so it's not unheard of. Maybe you could go full Cormin and drop the Clear Sight requirement too? That would be spicy. I don't know if everyone would like it, but I think it would be cool, assuming all else was balanced.)

I mildly support the Defense change to 2. Not enough to write a persuasive essay on it, just enough to mention it.

I also really like Kinseth's suggestions. He's found a good balance between streamlining the unit for an assassin feel without completely reinventing the design, as well as having it be an interesting unit with a new role in an existing army without feeling like a "make Drow good" unit.

As for the issue of when the shift happens, I can see it both ways. Kinseth's suggestion allows you to better develop the assassin with your army, but your thought does put the focus on the assassin in a way that I like. I think ultimately I like Kinseth's better, for the simple reason that the assassin is common and it will better suit a common hero. Your version would be great if you turned it into a Unique Hero (or maybe Uncommon...? not quite seeing it though). And of course, testing and finding the right balance for the play style always means things are subject to change, but I think you've got a great direction here.
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  #45  
Old March 15th, 2018, 11:29 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I want to ask something. Would those of you interested in the Assassin like to see a form of bonding in her design, or would you prefer she became a standalone unit similar to the Chainfighter?



In regards to the designs that have been discussion thus far in this thread, and after some thought, and some minor tests, I have come to this design:
Spoiler Alert!


I have kept her attack at 3. Assassination 2 fills a similar roll to sneak attack, so I don't think that the design of Assassination 2 works with an increased base attack.

Moving the Assassin through shifting without giving the Assassin a turn feels unappealing to me. It forces you to put the assassin into a more forward position, and since she is more powerful and useful in a Drow army than an individual Deepwyrm, she will be targeted and killed more readily than the Deepwyrm. This was fine when she had a form of bonding, because it kept to keep her in check with her threat range, and you needed to put her at the front to take advantage of sneak attack. If you wanted, you could run her out, but you wanted to keep ger alive for her bonding, and close to your army to take advantage of sneak attack. Without that incentive it feels like I'm just throwing a more expensive, but just as squishy of a unit, towards my front line so that it can die just as quickly as any other Deepwyrm, but without the potential of poison weapons or sneak attack to justify it. Assassination 2 makes you want to keep her behind your front lines, and only run her out front when you can get your 2 attacks off with the X order marker. If she otherwise stays up front, her potential feels wasted.

I have chosen not to lower the defense to 2, because it almost guarantees that the Assassin will die if you don't successfully Hide on Darkness. The Assassin is already worth more points than a single Deepwyrm, and I don't see reason for making her defense weaker. If I did, I feel that I would have to lower her points to 20 or the Chainfighter would overshadow her too much. As is, I feel like the Chainfighter is still a stronger option.

I feel a bit lost, because I honestly thought the submitted design was pretty solid, and I just don't feel that same way about this, or any of the other suggested changes. I wish that the review process involved some playtesting so that some of the concerns could have been put to rest. Although I did make her help to Drow, she really didn't make the Drow some highly competitive army. She mostly just made them more fun to play, and helped with order marker management a little.
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  #46  
Old March 16th, 2018, 12:45 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Could you do something like this
Shadow Shift
After revealing an order marker on, and taking a turn with a Common Drow Squad, or Common Drow Hero, you may choose one of the figures that attacked or moved this turn that is within 6 sight spaces of a Drow Assassin. You may Switch the Drow Assassin with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.

Assassination 2
After taking a turn with a Drow hero or squad, you may reveal the X order marker on this card, if you do, you may take a turn with this Drow Assassin. During this turn, you may add 2 to its attack value.

Hide in Darkness

If a Drow Assassin is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If that Drow Assassin is on a dungeon space, add 3 to your die roll. If it is on a shadow space, add 6 to your die roll. If you roll a 1-15, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 16 or higher, ignore all damage that would have been inflicted by the attack.

Wording needs cleaning up, but I think this gives the feel of an assassin, without it adding too much to the faction, but adds just enough.
I. LOVE. THIS.
All I would do from here is. Cut down the first power to just give a turn on the x marker when using the other drow units and give the assassin some poison weapons. He/she would be lethal with the 2 extra dice. What assasin doesnt need poison weapons. Im totally stealing this if you guys dont do something with it. It deserves the drow. Love the slinky side attack via the x marker for some shadowy assassin.
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  #47  
Old March 16th, 2018, 12:59 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I reiderate so many of our sentiments. I think Kinseth has found a great resolve to this design. I'm very excited about the alterations and mechanics he's suggested through his version of Shadow Shift. It's cleaner than your current iteration and still accomplishes a great deal of OM management and skill in timing (at least theoretical theoryscaping that is). I think you should just test his version that he's suggested as seen below. The idea here is that the assassin now becomes a silent stalker rather than the armies core. With Kinseth's iteration, you would still run a heavy Deepwyrm based army with maybe Pelloth and 3 Assassins where you'd still be able to use Assassins to slink around and kill even when you're using OM's on Deepwyrm and Pelloth or others. His version opens some great doors and I really think you aught to explore this.

Quote:
Shadow Shift
After revealing an order marker on, and taking a turn with a Common Drow Squad, or Common Drow Hero, you may choose one of the figures that attacked or moved this turn that is within 6 sight spaces of a Drow Assassin. You may Switch the Drow Assassin with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #48  
Old March 16th, 2018, 01:24 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I agree with Sir Heroscape. The Drow Chainfighter is already a good standalone common hero for the faction--I'm more interested in seeing the Drow Assassin mesh with what we have and add some interesting new synergies than seeing it spun off to become somewhat standalone. While restricting Shadow Shift to only being used on its turn could be neat, I'm concerned that this could restrict the design too much.

I think that being able to shift freely after taking a turn with a Drow but only sneak in an attack once per round with the Assassins is a nice compromise, and I'm a big fan of how this can even work to some extent with uniques. While you do have to leave the more expensive Assassin a vulnerable spot, I think that the opportunities it can present make it a valuable choice nonetheless. Coupled with the more limited nature of Assassination 2, I can see some serious thinking going on as players consider whether to switch their Assassin forward or when to activate the X Order Marker.

There's some fantastic potential for a rather unique army here, and I think that letting the Drow Assassin mostly work in addition to the rest of the Drow is a key point of letting it develop.
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