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  #229  
Old April 20th, 2019, 01:38 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Well met!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

* * * * *





Guided Missles Special Attack is identical in effect to Deathcommander Mark 3's Explosive Rounds Special Attack, the only difference being the range of 6 (versus 5 for the Deathcommander).






No, it isn't. They aren't even similar.

Not identical, true [re-reading powers], both attacking 2 figures, with Guided Missles Special Attack affecting all figures adjacent to the target, while Explosive Rounds Special Attack affects just one additional figure, but they are similar.


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  #230  
Old April 20th, 2019, 01:59 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Undead Samurai is two of my favorite things in one. A couple things, though. Since Honor Beyond Death doesn't specify only previously destroyed Shinda can replace figures, doesn't that allow you to teleport a living Shinda across the board? Second, how would you keep track of which Shinda need to be destroyed at the end of the round due to Unstoppable?

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  #231  
Old April 20th, 2019, 02:20 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Well met!

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Undead Samurai is two of my favorite things in one. A couple things, though. Since Honor Beyond Death doesn't specify only previously destroyed Shinda can replace figures, doesn't that allow you to teleport a living Shinda across the board? Second, how would you keep track of which Shinda need to be destroyed at the end of the round due to Unstoppable?
Yes to the teleportation. Place a wound marker on to-be-destroyed was Shinda for Unstoppable .
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  #232  
Old April 20th, 2019, 03:09 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

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Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
Very cool design! [Apparently, I haven't spread my Rep around enough to give more to Astro.]

HONOR BEYOND DEATH
The Shinda Samurai do not start the game on the battlefield. For the entire game, when a Human Samurai . . .
Thanks for the kind words!

I had actually been mulling that over more in the past couple of days, and I'm thinking that the clause admittedly wouldn't clutter the design too much. Your suggestion is actually verbatim my most recent draft on the card, which I was thinking about posting today.

Quote:
Not identical, true [re-reading powers], both attacking 2 figures, with Guided Missles Special Attack affecting all figures adjacent to the target, while Explosive Rounds Special Attack affects just one additional figure, but they are similar.
Guided Missiles Special Attack also can't target the same figure more than once, which has been a key difference in the times that I've played each figure. There are some similarities in each power, but M.A.R.S. is entirely geared towards wiping out swarms and much less useful in other situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Undead Samurai is two of my favorite things in one. A couple things, though. Since Honor Beyond Death doesn't specify only previously destroyed Shinda can replace figures, doesn't that allow you to teleport a living Shinda across the board? Second, how would you keep track of which Shinda need to be destroyed at the end of the round due to Unstoppable?
Yes, living Shinda Samurai can also be teleported. The way I see it thematically is that they're being kept alive by a curse which fades either at the end of the round or when it passes along to a fresh corpse.

Mechanically, I think that the ability to reposition them without waiting for them to be destroyed is necessary for them to remain useful. Otherwise, you'd have to save them for much longer, since it's not worthwhile to move them individually when you have other options, and they can be outplayed by simply leaving them alive as the opponent.

I don't think that Unstoppable will present too much of a memory issue. Samurai armies are generally light on figures already, and I can't see more than three of these guys being taken in the same army. I'd prefer a better way of keeping track, but knowing whether 1-3 figures have received a wound this round doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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  #233  
Old April 20th, 2019, 04:27 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Teleporting seems weird to me, but if you have a thematic reason for it, go for it. Personally, I'd prefer as others have suggested none of them starting on the battlefield, but I know you also said you don't want to add the wording.

As far as keeping track of them... let's say there's a bunch of them adjacent to each other who get Exploded by an initiative-winning Deathwalker 9000. IMO, that's a headache before considering they may move and/or teleport over the next 5 turns.

I love the idea of Undead Samurai taking the place if their fallen counterparts, though.

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  #234  
Old April 20th, 2019, 10:20 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Teleporting seems weird to me, but if you have a thematic reason for it, go for it. Personally, I'd prefer as others have suggested none of them starting on the battlefield, but I know you also said you don't want to add the wording.
I like the theme of them not teleporting, but mechanically I think that it's important for them to be useful. I'll hopefully be able to start testing these guys soon--I think that I'll start them out without teleportation, and see if it's as bad as I think.

I actually came around on the wording, but I haven't had the time to update it yet. After reflecting on it the past two days and as @kolakoski mentioned, it's only an additional sentence, so the clutter isn't too bad.

Quote:
As far as keeping track of them... let's say there's a bunch of them adjacent to each other who get Exploded by an initiative-winning Deathwalker 9000. IMO, that's a headache before considering they may move and/or teleport over the next 5 turns.

I love the idea of Undead Samurai taking the place if their fallen counterparts, though.
I can see your point about it getting confusing if you do choose to take more than a handful, and the other Samurai designs like Tomoe Gozen already encourage keeping them together. My original draft with Unstoppable was actually Uncommon, which would solve the problem, but I think that these guys are much better suited to being cheaper and common, neither of which is something the Samurai have.

I'll have to think more for whether there's a way to achieve the same effect without the memory mechanic. This is a design that I'm leaning towards submitting to SoV, so I can't use markers on the base, unfortunately. Worst case scenario, they can be made Uncommon but keep 1 Life for keeping track of Unstoppable.
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  #235  
Old April 21st, 2019, 12:02 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Is a Defy Death power out of the question?

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  #236  
Old April 21st, 2019, 02:32 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post

This miniature was brought to my intention by Pumpkin_King over on the Discord server, and though I tried, I couldn't resist the urge to design another Samurai.

My first draft involved him as a Unique Hero that would replace the Unique Samurai upon their destruction, constantly returning to the battlefield to try and avenge his comrades. After evaluating it for a little bit, though, I decided that this implementation was far too finicky. Whilst cleaning it up, I toyed around with lowering the price down to 50 (since the Samurai lack a cheap army-building option) and making him an Uncommon Hero, but I felt like this would just lead to far too many Order Marker headaches in practice.

Still, the idea of taking multiple skeletal Samurai seemed far more fitting to me than making another Unique Hero here. It also explores a space that the faction hasn't already, and lets them be cheaper individually to provide more army-building flexibility. I ended up deciding that making the design Common would be a really interesting direction to take it, especially given the imagery of an undead Samurai legion eventually forming.

The other key part of the design besides revival that I wanted to test out was making them survive to the end of the round, no matter how much damage they take. This ability is terrifying on paper, but with a single attack of 3 (even the Izumi provide a better offense), the Shinda Samurai would be best served as defenders and blockers for when you lose a key Samurai figure, which was always one of the worst feelings in the army. They make it easier to secure board control for an army that is crippled by a single whiff, either guaranteeing that you'll stay on a glyph for a round if you can reach it or tying down an attacker and watching them squirm for the round.

Overall, I don't see these guys as transforming the entire army on their own, but they provide a really nice and thematic expansion, along with some more technical options for the Samurai. They're probably best when only taking one or two of them, and their benefits are really tough to get working against ranged units, but I really like the direction that they're headed.

Anyway, that's my long ramble on the idea. As always, all feedback is welcome!
This custom is awesome. The samurai really need something to tie their build together (Tomoe Gozen is okay but not enough imo), and this dude helps a lot. Unstoppable probably needs some tweaking for balance, I could see it landing in the broken realm. Or, maybe just reduce his movement down to 3?

As is I would see myself just taking turn after turn with Shinda Samurai because of Unstoppable and not really focus on my samurai strategically...basically you get 15 move and 9 dice a round to throw into your opponent (plus counter strike kills too) and they can't do anything about it. I think there's a good chance you'll kill more than 35pt. each go. It's slow, but it seems too good. Like, if you just sit in your start zone or near your start zone with Raelin and some samurai and continuously send Shinda out. Then respawn them all and do it again further down the road. I don't know, maybe it's not as strong as I'm thinking it is, but I fear it's too much.

With Raelin+Kozuke+Izumi+Shindax7 you essentially get 13 Shindas and that's a lot of free dice to throw at your opponent, on top of your strategies and damage with Raelin/Kozuke/Izumi. Maybe the inefficiency of single turn single attack heroes makes the balance right, but I'm very wary of it.

Regardless of how you balance it or tweak it (if you do), Honor by Death and Unstoppable coupled together makes a really really cool unit.

Last edited by Cleon; April 21st, 2019 at 03:09 AM.
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  #237  
Old April 22nd, 2019, 12:08 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Is a Defy Death power out of the question?
I've considered it with a low roll number. My fear is that they would actually become more frustrating to fight, as the opponent may have to risk Counterstrike multiple times just to have the damage ignored. I do think that this simpler approach would be better than just making the current design Uncommon again, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
This custom is awesome. The samurai really need something to tie their build together (Tomoe Gozen is okay but not enough imo), and this dude helps a lot. Unstoppable probably needs some tweaking for balance, I could see it landing in the broken realm. Or, maybe just reduce his movement down to 3?

As is I would see myself just taking turn after turn with Shinda Samurai because of Unstoppable and not really focus on my samurai strategically...basically you get 15 move and 9 dice a round to throw into your opponent (plus counter strike kills too) and they can't do anything about it. I think there's a good chance you'll kill more than 35pt. each go. It's slow, but it seems too good. Like, if you just sit in your start zone or near your start zone with Raelin and some samurai and continuously send Shinda out. Then respawn them all and do it again further down the road. I don't know, maybe it's not as strong as I'm thinking it is, but I fear it's too much.

With Raelin+Kozuke+Izumi+Shindax7 you essentially get 13 Shindas and that's a lot of free dice to throw at your opponent, on top of your strategies and damage with Raelin/Kozuke/Izumi. Maybe the inefficiency of single turn single attack heroes makes the balance right, but I'm very wary of it.

Regardless of how you balance it or tweak it (if you do), Honor by Death and Unstoppable coupled together makes a really really cool unit.
Thanks for the feedback! Having played her many times, I agree that Tomoe on her own (or even Kato or Hatamoto, for that matter) isn't enough to tie the Samurai together. Some more thematic ways of tying the faction together would be great.

I see your concern with taking them with Raelin, but I think that the single move of 5 and attack of 3 will really hold that army back. Counterstrike is their best chance to deal damage in that set-up, which is a little iffy even with Raelin boosting them to 5 defense, and if they're your main offensive force, then I can't see the player using Unstoppable to avoid leaving engagement attacks too often, since they still die at the end of the round. It'd be a fun army to try, but my first impression is that it won't be viable outside of some melee match-ups.

I have decided to stop them from spawning on the battlefield, though, which should help address this a little bit. I don't particularly mind also dropping their move to 4 or a similar nerf, but I don't think that it'd come into play outside of clean-up in most Samurai builds and it makes the idea of making a Shinda-focused army pretty difficult.
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  #238  
Old April 22nd, 2019, 01:55 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

Perhaps Unstoppable would be better formatted as something akin to the Mezzodemon Warmongers’ Exoskeleton power? That would solve the memory problem.

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  #239  
Old April 23rd, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]

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Originally Posted by Leo Ultra View Post
Perhaps Unstoppable would be better formatted as something akin to the Mezzodemon Warmongers’ Exoskeleton power? That would solve the memory problem.
That's a possibility. It doesn't quite achieve the same effect as a guaranteed death at the end of the round does, but it could potentially be less frustrating than using a variation of Defy Death.
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Old April 27th, 2019, 06:46 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 4/18/19: Undead Samurai]


I finally got the chance to go ahead and make some alterations to the Shinda Samurai. They now start off of the battlefield and can't be teleported when alive anymore, along with becoming Uncommon so that Unstoppable doesn't have a memory mechanic.

I also got the chance to play them against some Nagrubs and Tor-Kul-Na, and everything seemed to be working fairly well, so these are the changes that I'm proceeding with for the time being. Uncommon felt fine for them (although I never got to the point that I wanted to take turns with them).

Last edited by Astroking112; April 27th, 2019 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Added a link to the playtest result.
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