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  #3157  
Old January 27th, 2019, 05:48 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Ah, I see. A "before taking a turn" power would not conflict with an "instead of taking a turn" power.

-snip-

Making a power that changes how other cards work is messy at best, and potentially problematic, especially if we start giving Lawmen "before taking a turn" powers.
In the same post you stated that "before" and "instead" don't conflict so we're currently fine as-is, but then you say future "before" powers on other Lawmen would be problematic. Which is it?
When I said they wouldn't conflict, I mean they they don't prevent each other. Probably. I could see arguments either way, but I think a strict reading would allow both.

Which would make things messy with any "before" power on any Lawmen card (including Clayton), as you could fire off the "before" power on a Lawman card, then substitute that turn with Shootout, which could be used to take a turn with that Lawman again, and possibly fire the "before" power again. Yuck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Again, "fresh" is a matter of degree. Leaders are going to create some kind of synergy within their faction, and it is often going to be similar to that which already exists in others. This is similar but different, which may be fresh to us but not to some.
Of course, it's all a matter of opinion. Personally I would rather we try to find other avenues for cowboy leadership other than another "give other units turns" version. But as an SoV Judge I'll judge any unit on its own merits, as is my role. It would be up to the Inner Sanctum as a whole to decide if a design like this should be added to canon.

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
So far there's barely any boundary-pushing (which new designs need to do from time-to-time; there are over 300 existing cards) and haven't been any rules headaches.


Do you mean with this design, or with VC in general? Because rules headaches are practically an everyday problem in Editing.

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  #3158  
Old January 27th, 2019, 06:19 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Is it a rules headache? Maybe, I’m not an expert on the rules. I would need a concrete example of the problems it causes in order to be convinced on that point. As is, my understanding of this concern is vague.
Pushing boundaries is not only good for individual designs, it's good for advancing the game as a whole. However, it is always dangerous. Even if a design does not cause any problems with existing units, it could cause awful problems for future designs. The list of official units that consistently cause rules headaches and restrict new designs is long. The more we add to that list, the closer we creep to an unmanageable rules quagmire. Just look to how other long-running systems like MtG rewrite their rulesets every now and again.

But like I said, pushing boundaries is both good and important. But it should not be done lightly, ever. More than anything, it needs to be important to the unit's design, a key part of how it works.

That's not what I'm seeing here. Shootout feels like an order marker-spread mechanic is shoehorned in, because it is. And I don't see a significant gameplay difference; it creates more decisions for order marker placement (sort of), but the resulting sequence of turns won't be much different. The way the unit and faction works would be mostly the same without it, and, most importantly, the strong thematic elements would be unchanged. I'm not convinced that creating a power that essentially adds itself to other units is justified here.
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  #3159  
Old January 27th, 2019, 08:56 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
you could fire off the "before" power on a Lawman card, then substitute that turn with Shootout, which could be used to take a turn with that Lawman again, and possibly fire the "before" power again. Yuck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you could not fire the "before" power again because once a Shootout begins, nobody can do anything except make attacks.


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  #3160  
Old January 27th, 2019, 09:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
you could fire off the "before" power on a Lawman card, then substitute that turn with Shootout, which could be used to take a turn with that Lawman again, and possibly fire the "before" power again. Yuck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you could not fire the "before" power again because once a Shootout begins, nobody can do anything except make attacks.
"May only attack" is not really something we should propogate... it's too vague when it comes to powers that mix with the attack phase. "May not move" is the direction we've gone now.
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  #3161  
Old January 27th, 2019, 10:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
"May only attack" is not really something we should propogate... it's too vague when it comes to powers that mix with the attack phase. "May not move" is the direction we've gone now.
Okay, I understand that, but those two phrases obviously don't mean the same thing. So if it's not feasible to simply define what "may only attack" actually means, then an acceptable alternate wording for it should be developed. It's clearly a design space that deserves a proper way of being stated.

Actually, thinking about it a little more, is there some reason why the simple, straightforward reading isn't the answer? If you can "only attack," then you can literally not do anything that isn't an attack. If some other power offers you the chance to do some other non-attack-thing instead of attacking, then in this case you just can't do that thing because it's not an attack.

There has to be an official interpretation for Gorillitroopers and Omegacon, so why isn't that also the general answer?

It's a pretty weird thought that all designers would just have to live with a design rule of "sorry, there is no possible way to prevent a unit from moving and also prevent it from using other abilities that are neither moves nor attacks." That can't really be the answer, can it?


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  #3162  
Old January 28th, 2019, 12:42 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
"May only attack" is not really something we should propogate... it's too vague when it comes to powers that mix with the attack phase. "May not move" is the direction we've gone now.
Okay, I understand that, but those two phrases obviously don't mean the same thing. So if it's not feasible to simply define what "may only attack" actually means, then an acceptable alternate wording for it should be developed. It's clearly a design space that deserves a proper way of being stated.

Actually, thinking about it a little more, is there some reason why the simple, straightforward reading isn't the answer? If you can "only attack," then you can literally not do anything that isn't an attack. If some other power offers you the chance to do some other non-attack-thing instead of attacking, then in this case you just can't do that thing because it's not an attack.

There has to be an official interpretation for Gorillitroopers and Omegacon, so why isn't that also the general answer?

It's a pretty weird thought that all designers would just have to live with a design rule of "sorry, there is no possible way to prevent a unit from moving and also prevent it from using other abilities that are neither moves nor attacks." That can't really be the answer, can it?
Powers can be anything. That's the problem. If Cyprien kills something, is Life Drain part of the attack, or is it a separate effect? How about Shurrak's Knockback? Even if "can only attack" works with limited sets of units, it's a design space limiter for units of that type.

"Cannot move" is easier to work with, but it isn't entirely clear either for much of the same reasons.

Some areas of the Heroscape ruleset are very soft. That's just how it was designed. The ODs messed with those areas sometimes, but sparingly. Notice not original designs tried to make other units have "cannot move" or "can only attack" turns. It seems like an obvious thing for a leader-type unit to have, yet they never went there. There's probably a reason for that.
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  #3163  
Old January 28th, 2019, 01:45 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

What if the limitation in Shootout was simply that the chosen chaining Cowboy can't have been activated with Shootout *this round*?

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  #3164  
Old January 28th, 2019, 07:40 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
What if the limitation in Shootout was simply that the chosen chaining Cowboy can't have been activated with Shootout *this round*?
After reading that a few times, I think I understand you are suggesting that each Cowboy can participate in only one shootout per round. That's an interesting idea.

However, at first I thought you were suggesting something a bit different: that each shootout had to be started by a different cowboy each round (but then everybody could follow as usual). Though that was a misunderstanding on my part, it caught my interest because it would require some real thought on OM placement, in a fairly natural way, and is an interesting Achilles' heel.


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  #3165  
Old January 28th, 2019, 09:49 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
What if the limitation in Shootout was simply that the chosen chaining Cowboy can't have been activated with Shootout *this round*?
I think this would fall under a “memorization” problem. How do you keep track of which were activated?
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  #3166  
Old January 28th, 2019, 04:15 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I think this would fall under a “memorization” problem. How do you keep track of which were activated?
It is trickier than remembering if you used Overextend Attack already or not, for sure.

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  #3167  
Old January 28th, 2019, 04:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

This feels very close to FIREFIGHT from 8th Pathfinders, which you choose 3 of them.

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  #3168  
Old January 29th, 2019, 09:17 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Which would make things messy with any "before" power on any Lawmen card (including Clayton), as you could fire off the "before" power on a Lawman card, then substitute that turn with Shootout, which could be used to take a turn with that Lawman again, and possibly fire the "before" power again. Yuck.
See to me, you can't replace a turn once you've chosen to use a "before" power, since you have to actually take a turn for the "before" power to come before a turn.

Quote:
Of course, it's all a matter of opinion. Personally I would rather we try to find other avenues for cowboy leadership other than another "give other units turns" version. But as an SoV Judge I'll judge any unit on its own merits, as is my role. It would be up to the Inner Sanctum as a whole to decide if a design like this should be added to canon.
"Give other units turns" is going to be a theme among leaders to some degree or another, there's no way around that. What we can do, though, is try to make it unique and thematic, and I feel we've accomplished that here.

Quote:
Do you mean with this design, or with VC in general? Because rules headaches are practically an everyday problem in Editing.
I meant this design. I don't envy anyone the task of running through the Checklist™ for every unit, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
The more we add to that list, the closer we creep to an unmanageable rules quagmire.
An unfortunate inevitability for long-running games. Fortunately, Heroscape's system is capable of pretty much anything, if it does get murky at times.

Quote:
But like I said, pushing boundaries is both good and important. But it should not be done lightly, ever. More than anything, it needs to be important to the unit's design, a key part of how it works.
Agreed.

Quote:
That's not what I'm seeing here. Shootout feels like an order marker-spread mechanic is shoehorned in, because it is. And I don't see a significant gameplay difference; it creates more decisions for order marker placement (sort of), but the resulting sequence of turns won't be much different. The way the unit and faction works would be mostly the same without it, and, most importantly, the strong thematic elements would be unchanged. I'm not convinced that creating a power that essentially adds itself to other units is justified here.
It does add options during gameplay, though, and giving players more options is usually a good thing. It's not particularly more thematic one way or the other, so I prefer to err on the side of choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Powers can be anything. That's the problem. If Cyprien kills something, is Life Drain part of the attack, or is it a separate effect? How about Shurrak's Knockback? Even if "can only attack" works with limited sets of units, it's a design space limiter for units of that type.
I completely understand where you're coming from, but I think we already have precedent for this. Sujoah (with his SA) and a Master of the Hunt are attacking Crixus. Each rolls 2 skulls to Crixus' one shield. Sujoah deals 1 wound, then stops unless he rolls a 20 because poison damage is part of the attack. Master of the Hunt deals 1 wound then rolls a die for Mortal Strike because it's not part of the attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
This feels very close to FIREFIGHT from 8th Pathfinders, which you choose 3 of them.
Certainly something I've loosely compared Shootout to myself, but Pathfinders can be anywhere on the board and participate in Firefight (though, due to Marching Orders they're typically close) and always get 3 shots regardless of how many skulls anyone rolls (and neverminding they have 4 Attack). Definitely similar, but also definitely different.


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