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  #157  
Old March 15th, 2017, 08:53 AM
AMIS AMIS is offline
 
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorlof View Post
DECK 5 - Miscellaneous: Woo, Sam Brown. 2 destructible objects (castle fortress door, Marvel breakable wall). 3 * 12 extras of uncommon units. 40 of 54 cards used, 14 cards unallocated.

DECK 6 - Glyphs: 39 glyphs, 2 artifacts. 41 of 54 cards used, 13 unallocated
Might I suggest;
Deck 5; 39 glyphs, Woo, 2 destructible objects with one extra of common units for 54 of 54.

Deck 6; 39 glyphs, Sam, 2 artifacts with one extra of common units for 54 of 54.

I know I have multiple copies of all the glyphs and use duplicates in games (although I'm not sure if it's worth printing them twice) and that would provide three sets of common cards for the figures (2 in these decks plus the one from the original).

Just when you thought it was all right, someone made it alright.

Good trades with - Porkins / xraine69 / mac122 (x2) / frylock / Ztimster (x2) and probably others I forgotten to mention...sorry.

Last edited by AMIS; March 15th, 2017 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Thinking out loud - which generally means noise without thought.
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  #158  
Old March 15th, 2017, 11:36 AM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

@dok , @capsocrates , @Tornado : Thursday is when I most reliably am in the situation described in the OP where I work on the Word-based template, so I'll do the UR coin variant then. I will also try to knock out a couple other cards.

@AMIS : I like that you figured out a way to "fill up" the decks, but as you mention, I'm not sure how often one would find themselves wanting a second copy glyph card. (Anyone?) I find even having the first one is an bit of an luxury, but one that I like. Card-based aids and references really tickle my fancy. That's also why I proposed filling up those last decks with other player aid types of things. 'course doing so means we would have to actually create those aids...
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  #159  
Old March 15th, 2017, 12:17 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

I like the idea of a rules reference. Would be really handy at tournaments or when playing with new players.

I like your Rolodex idea.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #160  
Old March 15th, 2017, 12:19 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorlof View Post
Thursday is when I most reliably am in the situation described in the OP where I work on the Word-based template, so I'll do the UR coin variant then. I will also try to knock out a couple other cards.
Sounds good. I'd like to see a squad again, just because at this point I'm more concerned with layout of the hitzone area than the power text. (Maybe Templars or 4th Mass, just to explore the most problematic hitzones?)

As far as deck layout: it's awesome that we can get basically every official figure card into four decks. As far as what to leave out of those decks... for the record, the cards that I've probably seen the least of in my many, many games are Armoc Vipers, Empress Kiova, Moriko, Retiarius, and the Sahuagin Raider. I'd note additionally that Sam Brown is way too playable/metagamey to be one of the two "left out" cards. But I wouldn't lose too much sleep over what exactly takes those two (non-)spots.

Last edited by dok; March 15th, 2017 at 12:37 PM.
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  #161  
Old March 15th, 2017, 12:47 PM
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japes japes is offline
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

For the record I do have several 54 card decks configured for C3G. Mostly chronological and keeping all the wave's intact with exclusive releases fit where they can. A few decks are filled in with uncommon cards using the most used numbers for figures. For instance...Black Lantern William and 3 uncommon Black Lanterns = 1000 points so I have 3 Uncommon cards for Black Lanterns. I don't have all the cards organized but I do have about a dozen give or take decks figured out. I may think I included glyphs as well in that. I also debated doing the Marvel, DC, Misc. decks as well as Mutant, Justice League, etc. type of layouts but in the end went for chronology as my device since it would be easiest going forward. I also did a running deck of "the last 54" that I cycled through as new releases happen. My thought was that someone could wait update as it goes along.

Hope that helps.
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  #162  
Old March 15th, 2017, 05:00 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

@dok --yeah, there are better choices for cards to drop. I saw Retiarius played at the last Gencon, by a good player! 'course he was just using the mini as a proxy for Sparty.

@japes --that's good to know. I was hoping you would be able to figure that out for us!

Japes and I have been talking privately about trialing various printing company with test prints. I'm just getting around to making the test cards. There are lots of things we could test:
- printing resolution;
- CMYK and RGB color rendition, gamut, evenness, consistency, toner aligment;
- cut size including corners, overall dimensions, consistency;
- print durability including scratch/scuffability, edge chipping;
- cardstock quality including bend test, thickness, opacity, gloss/finish;
- speed of service;
- centering, both on a card and alignment of front-to-back;
- a copyright, trademark check (will the printing company print something with a Marvel logo or Spiderman image);
- text legibility at a variety of sizes;
- image printed at proper size;
- handing characteristics--ease to get dirty, clean, water resistance, ripping, shuffling;
- and general impressions of test prints of sample cards.

I'm surprised there isn't any good BGG post comparing the various companies using test prints designed to tease out differences. Not all of these are as important for 'scape cards, but I want to test the things that are (and will probably use Bicycle playing cards as a reference in the comparison).

I've narrowed the potential companies down to:
- ArtsCow/CowCow (same company),
- PrintPlayGames/AdMagic (same company),
- SuperiorPOD,
- MakePlayingCards/PrinterStudio (same company),
- The Game Crafter (I can save on shipping), and
- DriveThruCards

If anyone has others they think should be added to the list, please let me know this week. I'm going to send test files out next week for printing.

I'm really hoping DriveThruCards has quality prints and cardstock because their pricing and ability to have them fulfill orders on demand would be great. (Unfortunately they don't offer a linen finish, which I'd like, but oh well...) If it weren't so expensive, MakePlayingCards/PrinterStudio looks to have the best options for cardstock (spec-wise) including plastic cards (!).

If DriveThruCards does deliver quality results (plenty of BGG users say they do), we can get bulk orders of all 218 cards (no cards need to be left out) to people for under $20 and one-off, on-demand orders could be fulfilled for under $25 (shipping included). And a bulk buy of all 650ish C3G cards could come to people's doors for less than fifty bucks!

I haven't finalized the test files, but in addition to having sample cards in both Japes'/JAB's design and the Smurfy design, they'll have strange cards such as the following (lots of bleed on these images):



(The background on many of these cards is transparent--which may have different colors on your screen depending on the site style you have active. It'll be white when printed.) These cards aren't finalized, particularly the last one that I just started on, so let me know if there are things you think I should add.

Anyway, consider the above a request to let me know what you know about card printing companies!

There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK

Last edited by Xorlof; March 15th, 2017 at 05:59 PM.
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  #163  
Old March 15th, 2017, 09:10 PM
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japes japes is offline
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorlof View Post
@dok --yeah, there are better choices for cards to drop. I saw Retiarius played at the last Gencon, by a good player! 'course he was just using the mini as a proxy for Sparty.

@japes --that's good to know. I was hoping you would be able to figure that out for us!

Japes and I have been talking privately about trialing various printing company with test prints. I'm just getting around to making the test cards. There are lots of things we could test:
- printing resolution;
- CMYK and RGB color rendition, gamut, evenness, consistency, toner aligment;
- cut size including corners, overall dimensions, consistency;
- print durability including scratch/scuffability, edge chipping;
- cardstock quality including bend test, thickness, opacity, gloss/finish;
- speed of service;
- centering, both on a card and alignment of front-to-back;
- a copyright, trademark check (will the printing company print something with a Marvel logo or Spiderman image);
- text legibility at a variety of sizes;
- image printed at proper size;
- handing characteristics--ease to get dirty, clean, water resistance, ripping, shuffling;
- and general impressions of test prints of sample cards.

I'm surprised there isn't any good BGG post comparing the various companies using test prints designed to tease out differences. Not all of these are as important for 'scape cards, but I want to test the things that are (and will probably use Bicycle playing cards as a reference in the comparison).

I've narrowed the potential companies down to:
- ArtsCow/CowCow (same company),
- PrintPlayGames/AdMagic (same company),
- SuperiorPOD,
- MakePlayingCards/PrinterStudio (same company),
- The Game Crafter (I can save on shipping), and
- DriveThruCards

If anyone has others they think should be added to the list, please let me know this week. I'm going to send test files out next week for printing.

I'm really hoping DriveThruCards has quality prints and cardstock because their pricing and ability to have them fulfill orders on demand would be great. (Unfortunately they don't offer a linen finish, which I'd like, but oh well...) If it weren't so expensive, MakePlayingCards/PrinterStudio looks to have the best options for cardstock (spec-wise) including plastic cards (!).

If DriveThruCards does deliver quality results (plenty of BGG users say they do), we can get bulk orders of all 218 cards (no cards need to be left out) to people for under $20 and one-off, on-demand orders could be fulfilled for under $25 (shipping included). And a bulk buy of all 650ish C3G cards could come to people's doors for less than fifty bucks!
I've tried the three I've marked above and PrinterStudio was the best on colors and stock. I've never tried DriveThruCards but I like your $50 price check for C3G cards.
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  #164  
Old March 16th, 2017, 04:42 AM
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Xorlof Xorlof is offline
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I've tried [ArtsCow, PrintersStudio, The Game Crafter] and PrinterStudio was the best on colors and stock. I've never tried DriveThruCards but I like your $50 price check for C3G cards.
ArtsCow uses a 285gsm cardstock. Basic quality, but does the job.

The Game Crafter has upgraded their stock in recent years and currently uses a 305gsm black core stock. It's pretty good. You won't pick it up and say, "wow" but it is noticeably better than ArtsCow. Their old stock was pretty similar to ArtsCow.

PrintersStudio has cardstock options. I've never seen their plastic cards (but I want to!). Their non-linen card is a 300gsm blue core stock. Their linen is 310gsm black core. The biggest problem with them is that they've upped their prices twice in recent years and is now several times more expensive per deck than before.

DriveThruCards uses two stocks, but only their "premium" stock is worth considering, IMO, since it is a significant upgrade (their basic quality is worse than ArtsCow) and it only costs half a penny more per card. It is a quite thin (11.6pt) but very dense 320gsm black core stock. Sounds really nice, even more so if you want to shuffle the cards (not important to us). I'm guessing their print quality is going to be good too--Fantasy Flight Games used to use them a couple of years back for their Print On Demand products. That, and they also operate like a company interested in print quality--they will review proofs with you, give you ink coverage guidelines (and have a staff member review submitted files for same), the whole shebang.

So cardstock-wise, currently in ascending order of quality (for non-linen cards) should be ArtsCow, PrintersStudio, The Game Crafter, then DriveThruCards, at least on paper (pun intended). (But as japes' post suggested, The Game Crafter used to have pretty cheap cardstock).

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I've never tried DriveThruCards but I like your $50 price check for C3G cards.
Yeah, $50 vs $100 or $150 (depending on quantity) at current PrintersStudio prices is quite the contrast. A few years back PrintersStudio would have been similarly priced to DriveThruCards. Nowadays, you have to bulk order 1000 identical decks from them to get that kind of pricing.

Note that the "under $50" price I mentioned for a complete C3G set would actually be about $45 shipped, not $50, to get a complete C3G set, but that quote assumes we hit their minimum for a bulk/group order (at least 8 people wanting to order a complete set). If buying as an individual, the price would be nearly $60 ($59.86)--not as good, but comparatively still a steal.

So, in summary, I've got price quotes from all of the companies I've mentioned in the previous post (not all covered in this one), and will be ordering printed samples from all of them next week. I have my fingers crossed that DriveThruCards will have quality prints because their pricing is attractive and they offer some other niceties that will really help us in this project (They have ability to take and fulfill orders on our behalf, so anyone can order these cards whenever they want them, right from a link to a special page on the DriveThruCards website. Some of the other companies do that too, but unique to DriveThruCards is that any size "deck" is allowed, from 1 card on up--no 18 or 54 card requirement. We could list each wave individually if we wanted--12 cards here, 22 there--it doesn't matter, and the per card pricing always remains the same low price (unless you do a bulk order of >5,000 cards and then the price goes lower). They're also based in the U.S., not Hong Kong like some of the others, so shipping times should be less).

Again, all of the above is kind of putting the cart before the horse, but the choice of printer does affect us even at this early stage. For example, if we can't find a reasonably priced printer that can crisply print the small 5.5pt text font on Augamo as well as Hasbro printed it's 5.5pt Repulsors card, we've got a problem with being able to use that size font. (I think we'll be fine, but it makes sense to check to be sure!)

There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK

Last edited by Xorlof; March 16th, 2017 at 10:41 AM.
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  #165  
Old April 12th, 2017, 08:36 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

for the $50 price tag I would be in for sure. I like the fact that we can update a full deck and create small decks for new releases.
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  #166  
Old April 12th, 2017, 08:40 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

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  #167  
Old April 13th, 2017, 09:04 AM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Cool!
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  #168  
Old October 14th, 2017, 08:26 PM
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Re: Smurf along with me: la la la-la la la!

Any progress on these Xorlof?

My latest thought: if we move life to the bottom left with the other key stats, then points could go in the upper right and probably wouldn't even need a "P" at the end. No icon, no letter, just a number in the corner. Keep it simple.
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