Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > AotV Customs
AotV Customs A place for Arena of the Valkyrie Customs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #37  
Old October 19th, 2020, 10:16 AM
capsocrates's Avatar
capsocrates capsocrates is offline
My six-year-old sister-in-law calls the shots
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: USA - CO - Denver area
Posts: 14,783
Images: 12
capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth capsocrates is a man of the cloth
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

Thanks for collecting all that data and performing some analysis, flameslayer; really valuable.

Hopefully the pod leads for each pod are reading this thread and will consider this big picture.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
--
Come join the Heroes of Middle Earth in creating Lord of the Rings Customs!
--
Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old October 25th, 2020, 04:25 PM
Pumpkin_King's Avatar
Pumpkin_King Pumpkin_King is offline
A Happy Extradimensional Horror
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: VA-Culpeper
Posts: 7,871
Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old October 25th, 2020, 05:45 PM
NecroBlade's Avatar
NecroBlade NecroBlade is offline
"our design team knows what it's doing"
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Location: KY - Shepherdsville
Posts: 20,899
Images: 154
Blog Entries: 21
NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
So far we have 25 powers for 12 units, giving us an average of slightly more than 2 powers per unit. That's definitely been a trend in unit design for a long time now, both in regards to custom units, but also to units who came after RotV. But since one active goal of AotV is to be simple enough for an 8 year old to pick up (as that was originally who it was marketed to), it would be a good idea to look at cutting back on 2 power cards and minimizing 3 power cards. So far, Pyria is our only 1 power card, and while Heroes in RotV general had 2 powers (only Agent Carr had 3, and they basically merged them into 1 power on later designs), most of the squads only had 1. While I'm not suggesting that we need to drop the second power on all of our squads, as those powers are what help define them in the overall game, they certainly won't help define them in the Master Set.
I heartily agree that there shouldn't be many 3-power cards (Katryn is the only one so far, would be great if we can get away with 1 more, tops). I also agree more single-power cards would be nice (in addition to Pyria, again at least 1 more wound be nice). Single-power cards get harder to do as the game goes on, though, which is fine. That means everything else is pretty much a 2-power card. Which isn't bad as long as the powers are relatively simple. Ukushisa's Lava Resistant barely counts, and Dienekes re-uses Combat Challenge. Stuff like that helps keep the complexity scales balanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Total power components (basically, this power is a special attack using special attack rules, has lob rules, is only used once per game, all squad figures must use it and hits everything adjacent to them... wait, that's Grenade Special Attack) is a scary number at 63, but to be fair, most powers have several components. Grenade Special Attack has 5 components alone, just to be a power that isn't that great. It's important to remember that powers that trigger others basically add in the components of the triggered power a second time, because you are using that power a second time. So far, only Blink from the Velnesh Alphas have done this, so we should look to reduce this during future design steps and if units go back to design we could look to drop over the top powers.
This is good to look at in terms of complication creep, but as most powers will have at least 2 elements and we're looking at 1.5 per this math, I think we're OK so far. The good thing about Grenades is that they're intuitive once you've parsed the whole thing. If we can help having any powers with so many components, and so many words, that's good. But there may be room for a single Trample Stomp-like power (and that may already be Gravity Pull).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Off-turn powers are powers that either take effect when it isn't your turn or are always on. Auras like Velkhor's are still technically on even during opposing turns (and this is relevant because 3+ player games exist!), so while there are a lot of off-turn powers, some can be justified. Lava Resistance, for example. Right now, the main units who come to mind as being overly busy with "off-turn powers" is Dienekes and Velkhor. Does Dienekes need both Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge in terms of the Master Set in general? Does Velkhor need both Frailty Aura and Demon's Vulnerability Spirit? I don't know yet. Regardless, we should think of these things (and while I personally don't like trashing on a Pod's units when many of the users aren't really around to help lead a potential new design for them, I certainly have to work in the best direction of the project). Regardless, later designs need to have more powers that aren't off turn since almost half of the powers in AotV take effect outside of your turn (and I didn't count Mindjack's control into this, as that requires your turn to activate in the first place).
Interesting, not something I would've thought about. RotV was 6/16 units. We're at 8/12 so far (8/24 overall). The same ratio leaves us one unit to work with. Not that we have to accomplish that, but it's something to keep in mind as enemy powers that are active during your turn increase the complexity of your own turns, even if your own units don't very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Move other figures is in a good spot, and I'd suggest that we don't create too many more units with that component.
This is something I wanted to keep an eye on from the beginning. It wouldn't be the end of the world if the second half of the units matched our current pace, but we're probably close to full up on these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
We are keeping pace with RotV as far as rolling the D20 go, and I suspect we could do about 3 or 4 more designs where the D20 is the preferred method of determining if the power can trigger.
Agreed. d20s are fun. Too many d20s are not. So far I think we're doing a fine job using them as needed, and avoiding them when not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
We do have a lot of powers that have a special requirement to trigger, but these special requirements are generally fairly easy to pick up on and strategize around. Things like a unit must be destroyed by Vlad to activate Vlad's attack aura may be an issue, so we should make sure that any designs we have done don't have needless requirements in the picture of AotV. It's highly unlikely we will be passing anything that is game-breaking into the meta at large, so we need to be thinking in the short box from here.
This seems to go at least part in hand with outside-of-turn powers. The more powers we keep during the unit's turn, the more triggers can be kept to timing windows and not much else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Flying and teleporting powers are probably fine. I would suggest we have no other teleporting units just to keep the Velnesh Alphas distinct, but since all of the winged units are likely to have some variant of flying we are fine.
Yeah, I don't see an issue here. Flyers gotta fly, and I don't see any other teleporting units happening (though Jace's Illusions allowing a swap with an Archmage is a possibility).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Resurrection powers have been a thing some RotV, and even the campaign in BtfU had a rule for resurrection a downed dungeon crawler with the potion. We do have a glyph that lets you resurrect squad units (hah! I didn't forget about glyphs and towers) so if the Pheonixes or Lilianna don't have resurrection powers that'd be great. I'm not going to say we shouldn't have them, but... we shouldn't have them from a statistical Point of View.
I'd be perfectly fine with the Phoenixes or one other unit having a resurrection power. More than one would be too many. We also have the HSG, but they're at least temporary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Only the Soulguides negate other units's powers at this time. We can get away with one other unit doing it, but since its literally only been done like three other times in the game (Morsbane, Kira, Glyph of Negation from BtfU), we really don't need to do it again.
Self-negation is a bit different, though. But it's not something we need to include, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
From the OP:
Quote:
Special Attackers - RotV actually had 3 Special Attacks through 16 units. Without trying to create a perfect ratio of SAs to Units, I think we can get away with 4 or 5 Special Attacks in this set since we have 24 units.
Right now we have 3 of the 5 suggested SAs. Special Attacks are loud, fun, and explosive. We should make sure any later Special Attacks are well warranted for the design.
4 or 5 would be the same ratio as RotV. Two more sounds about perfect, and perfectly doable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Tetsuo is the only unit with a mind control feature, and I suspect he'll be the only unit with one. Also, he should probably be the only unit with one.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
So far, only 2 powers prevent choices: Combat Challenge forces you to attack Dienekes and Gravity Pull forces Ozuul to use Cushing Vortex Special Attack. Normally choice denial is limited anyway, but for the record I think we are *fine* on this statistic. I wouldn't suggest going any higher than 2 powers that use a choice denying mechanic, however.
I don't see anything else occupying this niche, so we should be OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
3 Units can boost their own attack right now, which is a little worrying since RotV only had 2 units boost their own attack, and we haven't gotten through most of the units yet. It may be wiser just to give units who can boost their own attack a higher attack in general sometimes.
While 3 wouldn't be a bad place to stop, I also wouldn't blink at 1-2 more. Depends on the unit and power, so we'll see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Self Boost Defense is close behind, letting 2 units do it. Nothing from a Master Set so far has let you do this yet, but that doesn't mean we can't do it ourselves as we have 24 units to make feel unique from each other. Echoing what I said before though, it may just be wiser to give them a higher defense.
I proposed such a change to the Ukushisa, but I have similar feelings here as the attack boosts. It's one of the simpler types of powers to do. (And I would like to see the Rhox and Avacyn have a power that ties them together thematically, even better if it's mild synergy, too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
4 powers can reduce the defense of others... which is a little concerning right now. 2 of those powers are tied to Velkhor however, which is less bad than saying 4 individual units can cut defense. Since "defense is bad" has been a common theme from discussions ever since Raelin 1, I do get why we've used the power component a lot. I would suggest that we either modify existing designs to remove a power with it, or design the rest of the master set without it.
Two being on Velkhor is OK with me (better if they worked the same, to cut down a little bit here). But yes this is certainly something it would be nice to avoid for the rest of the set if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
2 Auras so far, Vlad and Velkhor. Vlad's Aura is an adjacency one in a similar vein to the vikings (and DW9k), while V's doesn't require adjacency in a similar vein to Raelin. We can probably make more adjacency aura powers and not hurt the master set proper.
Adjacency auras are easily the safest in this category, should we want any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
1 Spirit power, which is a bit of a shame because of how unique they made the viking bros play in RotV. If later designs confer spirit powers, I'm not going to complain and statistically, we are in great shape for a second one.
I don't feel Spirits are something that has to be done (since it was only the Vikings until Eldgrim [also a Viking] and the Varkaanan Heroes), but one on Velkhor and one (maybe two) somewhere else would be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Bonus movement powers may need to be limited in future designs. They make fast units play faster, defenders get into the action, or let you hurl yourself onto Migol's Tomb so you can kill the big bad dragon yourself.
Like Attack and Defense, it's pretty simple to make powers that modify the basic stats. It's only the Velnesh and Rhox so far, but depending on how everything else goes this is part of the reason I'm not super keen on Dienekes moving friendlies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
A multitude of powers grant disengagement, but some of that is tied into powers that let you move other figures, like Gravity Pull. Strangely, we don't have Disengage in the mix anywhere. We probably should have 1 unit know how to Disengage, and maybe a second use Phantom Walk as those are common powers.
Reusing simple powers isn't bad. Not something we have to do by any means, but helps keep things relatively simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
A single healing power is good, and that's probably all we need considering the glyph of healing is also in the box.
Agreed. Note the slight overlap with resurrection powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
4 powers let you get extra attacks in, or at least drop an AoE effect to hit multiple figures. None of them are on squad units yet, so maybe it would be a good idea for a future squad design to hit multiple things at once in a similar vein to the Airborne Elite. For the heroes side, we can reasonably do another couple heroes with multi-attack potential. Double Attack should get used somewhere, if applicable.
Airborne Elite, Deathwings, and Vulcanmechs are I think the only Squads that hit multiple figures. If we end up with one, great, but we absolutely shouldn't go out of our way for it. Double Attack falls in the "simple, reusable" power category for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Terrain requirements or terraforming come up 3 times in the designs so far. While RotV didn't do a lot of this, SotM and BtfU had zero issue with terrain becoming a factor in gameplay. Right now, I have no issue with them, however it is pretty funny to see Lava Resistance in here. But hey, Othkurrik works on swamp so why not?
Lava Resistance is a nice, harmless almost non-power that ties in with Heroscape-outside-AotV. I don't see much else happening outside Durnipia (who should also be the only terrain-changing power).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.
But which general? There are six of them.


Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set!
317-149
C3V Brainstorm
Pepperony - 14/09/13
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old October 25th, 2020, 06:34 PM
Pumpkin_King's Avatar
Pumpkin_King Pumpkin_King is offline
A Happy Extradimensional Horror
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: VA-Culpeper
Posts: 7,871
Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I know I've been looking for simplicity in general.
But which general? There are six of them.
*gags*
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old January 1st, 2021, 10:47 PM
S1R_ART0R1US's Avatar
S1R_ART0R1US S1R_ART0R1US is offline
Under Taro's Banner
 
Join Date: October 16, 2007
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 2,220
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 1
S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness S1R_ART0R1US wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

As a "consumer" of community efforts like this, it's great to see the macro-level analysis of unit design which I think is extremely relevant to this effort. Would love to help out with this as pods progress in design.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old January 1st, 2021, 11:10 PM
Pumpkin_King's Avatar
Pumpkin_King Pumpkin_King is offline
A Happy Extradimensional Horror
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: VA-Culpeper
Posts: 7,871
Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: [AotV] Unit Mechanics

That would be really helpful, I think!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > AotV Customs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread flameslayer93 AotV Customs 198 October 25th, 2020 05:55 PM
[AotV] Public Voting Thread flameslayer93 AotV Customs 67 May 11th, 2020 06:01 PM
Help with gameplay mechanics Drewman-chu Comic Hero Custom Creations 18 December 24th, 2012 02:12 AM
WotC's Focus on Mechanics - A Discussion Schulzy HeroScape General Discussion 7 February 20th, 2010 02:01 PM
New Door Mechanics jodokast Other Customization & HS Additions 3 July 28th, 2007 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:03 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.