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  #18109  
Old November 30th, 2016, 03:08 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I'd give the all Thief option the +1 Attack boost and the all Assassin option the +2 Move boost. That would balance out better, otherwise I would never consider an all Kingpin & Thief team over an all Kingpin & Assassin team. Otherwise I like it.
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  #18110  
Old November 30th, 2016, 03:55 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Really like the direction. I feel like Frame-Up should thematically have some kind of downside, or at least require an OM instead of applying for the whole game, Jameson style. (not that that's a huge drawback for him, you're giving him OMs anyway)
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  #18111  
Old December 1st, 2016, 02:53 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I'd give the all Thief option the +1 Attack boost and the all Assassin option the +2 Move boost. That would balance out better, otherwise I would never consider an all Kingpin & Thief team over an all Kingpin & Assassin team. Otherwise I like it.
I feel the opposite way here, switching the boosts around would make the gap between them worse imo. Almost all the current thieves are scissory types that you're drafting for their disruption abilities, not their attack stats. I'd much rather give them more board coverage to bring their abilities to bear easier than raise their attack from 'meh' to.. 'still meh' in most cases, especially since that extra move can often be parleyed into an extra attack die anyway (from height advantage). Giving Vulture 7 move is way more useful than giving him 4 attack for example. Even on Shocker and Grey Gargoyle I'd say it's a toss up over which boost is more useful depending on what your build looks like.

That said, an all Assassin build is going to be a stronger option for Willie most of the time, but that's primarily because Assassin is just a better class right now. There are no 'big ticket' Thieves, and many of the current ones are counter-drafts or just plain mediocre. I don't really have a problem with that though, thematically Kingpin's probably most strongly tied to Assassins anyway and a team of all 'guys who steal your stuff' probably shouldn't be the best choice in a game whose standard objective is murdering the hell out of everyone on the other team.

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Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Really like the direction. I feel like Frame-Up should thematically have some kind of downside, or at least require an OM instead of applying for the whole game, Jameson style. (not that that's a huge drawback for him, you're giving him OMs anyway)
The Soundwarpscape version does actually have way to 'clear the name' of the framed hero by killing or mind-shackling Kingpin, I left that off here mostly to match up with Lady Shiva's power (I forgot about JJ) and to save space since this version has specific classes it had to call out. I certainly don't have a problem adding something similar back in though.


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  #18112  
Old December 1st, 2016, 03:43 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I was all ready to mention Shocker as the one thief that really likes attack boosts but you burst my bubble two sentences later. Thieves are the one class that has a bonding squad that shares their class, so you do have the option of running Kingpin, crooks, and a bunch of thief heroes, and being really fast.

I very much like how Frame-Up can be used either to mess with an opponent's bonding options, or to give you an extra bonding option.

The last option for Kingpin of Crime is kind of funny, because it's one of those things that's just devilishly hard to pull off. While my mind dances with the possibility of a Kingpin/Star-Lord team up where you stack the bonuses to amazing effect*, that sort of build is pretty fragile. As you say, most of the time you'd be better off just sticking with one class.

Criminals have a few options for high efficiency. The obvious one is Wrecking Crew. You could also play Whirlwind and/or Mentallo, plus one of Bishop/Firestar/Spider-Girl, along with some Mutant Sidekicks. Scorpion and Harley is a third option.

Assasins are limited to X-23/Typhoid Mary and Mutant Sidekicks for bonding options, but that's still pretty good.

* Triple bank shot Star-Lord builds:
  1. Kingpin, Star-Lord, X-23, Gentleman Ghost, Speedball, Rover
  2. Kingpin, Star-Lord, X-23, Grey Gargoyle, Azrael/Parasite, Rover, Zombie
  3. Kingpin, Star-Lord, Gamora, Grey Gargoyle, Spider-Girl/Whirlwind, Rover, Zombie
  4. Kingpin, Star-Lord, Gamora/Deathstrike, Gambit, Scorpion, Zombie, Rover, Harley Quinn

The last one is worth it for the one round where you manage to go Gambit->Rover carries Star-Lord, then Gamora+Zombie, then Scorpion+Harley, and use everything.

Last edited by dok; December 1st, 2016 at 03:59 PM. Reason: having too much fun with Star-Lord, as usual
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  #18113  
Old December 1st, 2016, 04:02 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Maybe limit Kingpin to working with only human criminal/thief/assassins just to prevent the Star Lord bonus stacking. That would really limit his options though so I'm not sure if it is really worth it. Not a big fan of the idea of turning Star-Lord & Kingpin into a super team so any ideas to shut that down would be welcome.

The other good point Dok brings up is the Wrecking Crew does not need the easy defense boost. They don't use the X OM so perhaps making the bonus work off a revealed OM on Kingpins card would be enough to keep that combo in check. Not sure about having Kingpin always going first though, I see him more as a guy who sits back initially and lets his goons do their thing first. So maybe have the boost only work within an aura so you at least need to divert an OM to Kingpin once in a while in order to keep him close to the action and thus easier to attack by the opponent. Right now he can just chill in the start zone while the wrecking crew runs all around the map.
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  #18114  
Old December 1st, 2016, 04:06 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

While I just had way too much fun with the Star-Lord stuff, it's actually relatively weak. Kingpin forces you to go 1 OM on each in order to get the bonus, and Star-Lord forces you to not have any backup options if one goes down. So basically the whole idea behind the build dies as soon as one hero goes down.

The Kingpin + Wrecking Crew stuff is far more concerning.
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  #18115  
Old December 1st, 2016, 04:06 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

My only real thought is that a Frame-Up works well for an opponent's figure (breaking synergy) but, thematically, wouldn't make Daredevil suddenly start robbing banks. I think that would feel more like blackmail - "you work for me or else." Really just a name tweak there.

But overall I really love it.
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  #18116  
Old December 1st, 2016, 04:47 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Maybe limit Kingpin to working with only human criminal/thief/assassins
A Kingpin who can't work with Doc Ock/Rhino/Scorpion etc? No, sir, I do not approve.

I think it'd be cool if he worked with Crime Lords too - I mean, he is the Kingpin, Crime Lords bow to him. Perhaps tack that on to the Criminal set? I mean, they're linked with Criminals thematically and synergistically anyway, see the the Street Thugs and Hired Guns.

Good to see him working with Thieves (particularly since Shocker's one for reasons I'll never understand - always wished he worked with the Kingpin) - I feel Thieves have been overlooked for synergy for a long time and it's only recently getting better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
While I just had way too much fun with the Star-Lord stuff, it's actually relatively weak. Kingpin forces you to go 1 OM on each in order to get the bonus, and Star-Lord forces you to not have any backup options if one goes down. So basically the whole idea behind the build dies as soon as one hero goes down.

The Kingpin + Wrecking Crew stuff is far more concerning.
Yeah, not concerned either - doesn't sound too strong, but it does sound like one of those silly off the wall builds you need to try at least once for the sheer novelty. I have no problem with that.

I have a custom Kingpin I'm pretty happy with, but I've always been disappointed by the official one and this design looks really interesting, so I'm very much intrigued.


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  #18117  
Old December 1st, 2016, 05:04 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I don't think there's any pressing need to tie in Crime Lords. The card's got a lot going on already.

I like Shocker as a Thief. I do definitely want to push some Sinister Syndicate/Superior Foes type units to give him some more company and synergy options, though.
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  #18118  
Old December 1st, 2016, 06:27 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Shocker rules!

Kingpin + Lady Shiva allows any Vigilante(Punisher) to be an Assassin.

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  #18119  
Old December 1st, 2016, 06:45 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Shocker rules!

Kingpin + Lady Shiva allows any Vigilante(Punisher) to be an Assassin.
He does rule, I always get a kick out of playing him - I've just always wished he was a Criminal (and often house-ruled him as such).


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  #18120  
Old December 1st, 2016, 06:58 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

His points would have to jump as a Criminal(at least in today's C3G Criminal synergy).
I like that he is an awesome loner.

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