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View Poll Results: Which Melee Unit is the best?
Heavy Gruts 43 62.32%
Axegrinders 26 37.68%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old September 8th, 2009, 01:34 PM
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Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

DISCLAIMER: The orginal debates of #16-17 will NOT be redone, since I do not want to mess with reposting them, and since no no one will most likely re-responding to them. They may be redone in the future, however.

Other than that, he is this week's debate, submitted by Bonecrusher:



1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

Next week:

Spoiler Alert!


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Last edited by MegaSilver; September 8th, 2009 at 08:08 PM.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:10 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

Hard for me to tell for I do not have the Heavy gruts.

Though I would say the Orcs are better because they have more bonding options for their champions. Dwarves may be better down the road if they get more champions to bond with. Though the automatic +1 def/att vs the big boys are nice, however the Gruts get buffs from hanging out near their leaders against any unit.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:21 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:36 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

It's close, but I've got to go with the Heavy Gruts.

1. Stats/Special Powers
You can't get much closer than these two squads. Their points and stat array are nearly identical. They both bond with at least one solid hero. The dwarves have more movement than the Gruts when they don't bond, but less when they do. Disengage is useful all the time, but Fearless Advantage is really useful in those matchups.

Tie.

2. Playability

I've kind of already covered it. They're both solid squads.

Tie.

3. Overall Usefulness
Disengage probably comes up more often than Fearless Advantage, at least in my games.

Advantage: Heavy Gruts.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

I've actually run these two squads against each other several times. The games have generally been close, but the Heavies tend to win.

Advantage: Heavy Gruts.

5. Army Builds

Right now, there are more options for the Orcs, which can suit a variety of needs.

Advantage: Heavy Gruts.

6. Best Strategic Use

Orcs with Grimnak and Raelin (the Chomplin* build) work great against deathreavers and a lot of squad armies, but the Axegrinders just demolish and all large/huge force. If you run across an army like that, (or draft against it), the Axegrinders are just excellent.

Advantage: Axegrinders.

Overall: Heavy Gruts, but they're both solid, and two of my favorite squads to play.

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Last edited by Jexik; September 8th, 2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: *Or would Grimlin be better?
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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:39 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

Gruts, all day long. They bond with a ton of heroes, have better synergies, such as working better with Archers and other units, can be implemented in General Wars better than Axy'littlins, and have the Anti-Rat power, disengage.

No comparison here.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:02 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

The meta-game right now definitely favors the Heavy Gruts. If Zelrig ever becomes more prominent, the Dwarves might be able to overtake them.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:11 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

I'm not going to vote on this one because the Dwarves don't have as many bonding options yet, maybe with more they can outrank these armored blue skins. I'm seeing a solid Common Hero for them to bond with!

Going with current figures as is, I think it goes to the Gruts easily. Chomp is to awesome a power to let go of easily, and Heavies often have more auras (melee or otherwise) to leech defense or more from. The Dwarves simply do not have this option.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:47 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

I shall abstain as well, because I don't have the dwarves and have not seen them in play. They seem like an excellent squad for taking down dragons and such.

I love the Gruts. They are my favorite melee squad. Fast and versatile (depending on the hero you choose to use with them). I've seen them do amazing things on the battlefield. Go Orcs!

I really like how these guys are balanced. Orc armies have some great choices because of these guys; hopefully, dwarves will develop as well.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:49 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

I agree with most of what Jexik said, except that I give the nod to the Axegrinders.

1. Stats/Special Powers

One thing easy to overlook here is the Axegrinders tiny size, and yet their ability to still climb and engage. These guys can fit between Nelfheim's wings with ease, and hide behind small cliffs, but aren't so limited in their ability to get to the high ground where the range is. With a move of six (while nonding?) they can get around real fast.

Slight Advantage: Axegrinders

2. Playability

Both are very playable... and fun.

Tie

3. Overall Usefulness

Here I diverge as well. I think the Axegrinders are more useful in other army builds. They can be played very easily separately from their hero, but I don't think you do that much with the Gruts. Most good armies with Gruts, are Grut armies. But I think the Dwarves provide a tactical melee screen besides rats, that can run to glyphs and be potentially destructive. Consider Dwarves x3, AE, and Q9. Or Dwarves and Braxas. Or Dwarves, Brunak, KA, and Raelin at 520 (played this recently, it was awesomely fun and killer). You could make a list with the Gruts, but why would you ever play the Gruts without one of their bonding options?

Advantage: Axegrinders

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

Depends. Are we incorporating their bonding heroes only? Or just the squads? Or whatever army we want to run with them? If it's just the squads then it seems dead even, but if we're incorporating bonding heroes, then I'm going to trust Jexik here and say Gruts.

Slight Advantage: Gruts

5. Army Builds

Now that we're talking specifically about their army builds, I've got to tip the hat to the Heavies. It just makes sense. But I still think the Axegrinders overall playability is better.

Advantage: Gruts

6. Best Strategic Use

And here I can simply copy, paste, and edit.

Orcs with Grimnak and Raelin (the Chomplin* build) work great against deathreavers and a lot of squad armies, but the Axegrinders just demolish an all large/huge force. If you run across an army like that, (or draft against it), the Axegrinders are just excellent.

Advantage: Axegrinders.

Overall: Dwarves, but they're both solid, and two of my favorite squads to play.

Also, the meta-game does favor the Heavies right now, but not necessarily the game. If we examine these debates from the standard 400-600 range, then Heavies are favored in the meta-game, but that doesn't mean that in all things Scape the Heavies are favored, and that doesn't mean that they are favored head-to-head as units. And yet, with the resurgence of the Heavies (and therefore Grimnak and Nerak etc.), and Braxas, and the still wild popularity of Nilf and Q9, I'm not so sure it's so clear cut.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 05:35 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

Gruts have better mobility to start with, considering disengage, and fearless advantage can kill figures like grimnak that can bond with the heavy gruts. But Grimnak chomps the axegrinders even if they would get fearless advantage and the heavies could use themselves as blockers for Grimnak. The heavy gruts have a better bonding than the dwarves and the only way dwarves can gain an upper hand is by doing this. Still the orcs can bond and still have average mobility.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 06:13 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

I think I'd actually prefer the Axegrinders. Although they do have less bonding options, I might have them not bond at all. Migol is probably best against heroes, because they get less attacks (One Sheild Defense can work for one attack better than 3-5), and because Deadly Strike can inflict multiple wounds one figure, which will be most effective on Unique Heroes. However, many of those heroes are large or huge, so the Axegrinders could probably do it themselves. Also, the Dwarves are faster without bonding. The small or medium heroes could be taken care of by whatever you have left. You should have plenty of points left to do it.

The Heavies, on the other hand, kind of need to have heroes to bond with. This can take up the entire army, or at least a very large percentage of it. Some units could wipe out too much of that army.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 06:14 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders

While I prefer the Dwarves over the Heavies, I have to give the Heavies the edge when compared. Why? The Gruts have more hero versatility, more chances of getting that 4th or 5th die, and disengage.

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