The Pre-SoV Workshop

[superfrog]

Thanks for the input, Scy. I've got some ideas that improve the unit along some of those lines. I'll get that in this thread within a few days.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I'm just not feeling a lot of cohesion here. The figure fits with being a Wild Zealot pretty well, and the assassin-ish sword ability fit with that. But I just don't see Icarian Leadership fitting that picture. All the more so when you look at the broader Icarain lore, which suggest the Nhah Scirh zealots are a fanatical exception rather than the rule. Even without that, I'm not getting a leadership vibe from the rest of the design, including figure. It feels like Leadership tacked on to an assassin.

While I would agree that combining an "assassin" feeling with leadership would normally be odd, I'd argue that the fanatical cultist theme suits this moreso than the usual general/leader like Marcus or Count Raymond. If the Nhah Scirh Cultists are obsessed with killing dragons, then it makes sense for them to be inspired by a particularly brutal member, especially if he wields a special sword capable of dealing such massive damage (alternatively, it could even be seen as them competing with Agrah Fenh to reach the dragon first, determined to get their own strikes in).

I think that the closest comparison would be the Venoc Warlord, which mechanically skirts many of the same themes as this design. Both offer movement bonuses to their units, along with sporting more offensive potential than most leaders. Granted, the Venoc Warlord is still presented as a Warlord, but I think that a slightly more extreme version of the schism between cheerleader and assassin can still work.

That said, the theme certainly will feel weaker if we ever get some friendlier Icarians released who have no reason to follow Agrah.

[Leaf_It]

Perhaps the leadership ability could be restricted to Icarian Cultists. If any other Icarians ever release that are not Nhah Scirh, they won't be affected by it.

[superfrog]

Okay it's been more than a few days, but I think I've landed on a version that is more dynamic.

The move boost only applies when he's engaged, which makes things ~fun~ if you want that bonus.

The boring upgrade of Maul has been replaced with a little play on Wounded Smash.

Everything else is the same.

[Kinseth]

How about Unholy Fervor? I like this guy.

[Scytale]

I really like the changes you made. Forcing engagement to get the move boost is a great idea; it really forces the figure to be used early instead of standing in the back, and it goes a long way to limiting the ability's potency. The whole design is also more focused on your intended theme, a zealot who spurns others on through actions instead of leadership.

[superfrog]

I think it ought to create an interesting playstyle. You want him engaged so you get fast Cultists. Then you want to take turns with the Cultists while they're fast, but you'd also prefer to get some attacks with Unholy Fury (which might get a rename along the lines of Kinseth's suggestion). Then it's just about picking the right target. 5 or 6 dice + an auto-skull is pretty nice against a dragon.

Now to see if testing agrees with me.

[Sir Heroscape]

I really like the flavor you’ve got going. My only worry would be that Occult Zeal might go unused and irrelevant because of his 2 defense. By the time you get him engaged he may fall before your next turn with the Cultists. And even then, it might only be 1 turn you get the bonus before he falls. I think at that point I would rather just keep my OM’s with my Cultists to capitalize on development, board control and number of attacks instead of trying to get the bonus early.

[Astroking112]

These are some really interesting changes to Agrah. He now has to function as a shark to work as a cheerleader, which necessitates giving up turns with the cultists to get their movement bonus. I can't really think of any other cheerleaders like that, which fits the cultists.

I'm not really seeing the connection with Unholy Fury. The name implies something to do with Undead in my eyes, not a group of dragon-slaying cultists, so it feels a little off. I'm not sure what might sound better, but maybe something along the lines of naming his sword something unique and the ability after that might work (especially since the former is an eye-catching part of the sculpt). Perhaps you could play into the "legend" of Agrah Fenh more, making him some kind of twisted martyr with a fabled sword that gains strength as he nears death and inspires the cultists.

Changing the movement bonus to only work when Agrah is engaged is probably the most interesting change here, especially since it forces the player to use him aggressively to get any benefit. I feel like he may attract a little too much attention for his durability and points as a result (with 6 life and 2 defense, no Iron Resolve, and being forced to be engaged, I doubt he'll last very long once he gets into position), but anything like that would come through in playtesting.

[superfrog]

Well yeah. He's a shark cheerleader. It's a delicate combo. Depending on dice, he might not be engaged for more than a round-ish. But if you can get 2 turns of fast cultists and 1 or 2 big Unholy Fury rolls on Nilfheim, it's probably worth it.

If he proves to be too brittle, I can go to 5L/3D, but I'd prefer not to.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I really like the flavor you’ve got going. My only worry would be that Occult Zeal might go unused and irrelevant because of his 2 defense. By the time you get him engaged he may fall before your next turn with the Cultists. And even then, it might only be 1 turn you get the bonus before he falls. I think at that point I would rather just keep my OM’s with my Cultists to capitalize on development, board control and number of attacks instead of trying to get the bonus early.

This is my concern as well. 2 Defense is very squishy. At 70 points, I feel that there better options. He doesn't actually buff the Cultists unless you give him a death wish, and attempting to use his other abilities is also going to get him hurt.

Originally Posted by superfrog

Well yeah. He's a shark cheerleader. It's a delicate combo. Depending on dice, he might not be engaged for more than a round-ish. But if you can get 2 turns of fast cultists and 1 or 2 big Unholy Fury rolls on Nilfheim, it's probably worth it.

If he proves to be too brittle, I can go to 5L/3D, but I'd prefer not to.

The real questions here are;
- Do you think that 1 - 2 turns of +1 move is worth 70 points?
- Do you think that 1 - 2 attacks (if you're lucky you will get to use Unholy fury/Dragon Kind Enmity) are worth 70 points?

Realistically you have to choose to take advantage of either the +1 move, or the single attacks with those bonuses, instead of multiple attacks from the Cultists. He will die too quickly to expect more than that in most games. This is especially true if you are facing an army with ranged attacks, and most dragon armies are going to have this. For a guy who's supposed to be hunting Dragons, his abilities would make him a priority target for a Dragon's attack, and his stats look like he would be roasted before he could even reach them. To add to this issue, he lacks the Iron Resolve ability, making him an even more enticing target for Dragon Special attacks, and without Fanatical advance to allow him to reach his target, his higher attacks will be very hard to really take advantage of.

[Sir Heroscape]

Well put Leaf_it. Those were all the things I was thinking but not sure how to say.

@superfrog I know the sword has been a focus for you to incorporate, but he might be better off if you move his attack to 5 and then remove Unholy Fury and give him Iron Resolve. That way he has a survivability power, a cheerleader power, shark-like stats and a strong and thematic attack power. Unholy Fury and Dragonkind Enmity are basically 2 offensive powers, but I believe they’ll be hard to pull off without some survivability to them. Iron Resolve would fit and make sense. All just suggestions though.