C3G Public Design: Catman - Design Phase

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I still really loved him without the commander ability. I really don't think these guys need synergy, and if EVERYONE always has synergy, C3G will start to get a little stale...

He's not an important enough character to serve as a cornerstone in an army, in my opinion...

I agree, drop it and we're good

[GreyOwl]

to what Hahma said.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by Balantai

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but doesn't Outlaw Commander create turn breaks by allowing you to attack with different figures?

Spoiler Alert!

OUTLAW COMMANDER


After revealing an Order Marker on Catman, instead of taking a turn with Catman, you may do one of the following:

• Move any two Outlaw Heroes you control.
• Attack with any two Outlaw Heroes you control.
• Move any Outlaw Hero you control and attack with any other Outlaw Hero you control.

Any figure in the above list that is moving or attacking must be within clear sight of Catman before moving or attacking.

Yes! This is one thing that we have avoided vehemtly. The same thing with moving figures. You can specify to move the figures a certain amount of spaces, but attempting to use their own movement create issues that we prefer to avoid.

And I agree with Hahma.


Cheers

[quozl]

Since Spidey wants to do the Secret Six and give Catman a commander power, I'm going to need to withdraw this design until we have the rest of the Secret Six ready to go.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, alot to catch up on. Let me see if I can catch up.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I dunno, I'd just plain rather not overuse that gimmick. I think if we were to do another 9 life character, it'd be better on Black Cat. If we do it on every cat person, it'll get old really fast.

I agree Stray helps here.
And on Black Cat, in her name the emphasis is on the Black not the Cat. She has luck powers, not nine lives. Big Difference.

Originally Posted by Griffin

I agree, but Catwoman shouldn't have had a life of 9. I wish I could go back and redesign that - either way, it is very important for Catman as his mystical African cape is credited for giving him "9 lives".

I agree with Griffin.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I prefer Prowl with no disengage as well. He's got 9 lives - make him risk them if he wants to Prowl.
Also I'm worried that we're doing the Outlaw general, so to speak, before any other Outlaws. I think it will be nigh impossible to test him correctly - proxies just don't do it.
I also think the power could work just fine on Bane, honestly - especially if we found good figs to do as Bird, Trogg, and Zombie, and made them Outlaws as well. Honestly, besides a Venom type power what else does Bane absolutely need?

Gonna break this up. I think get him to the testing phase, then suspend him. This will come as a surprise to the Allies and Sidekicks, but it would not be the first time we have paused a design to come back to it. Also, it allows us to make that change over we voted on in the Sanctum because both Threads would be done around the same time.

Originally Posted by johnny139

Nah, Black Cat doesn't need 9 Life, if you ask me. Wildcat and Catman would both be justified because they have magic powers that specifically call the old "nine lives" addage to mind, and we've already got it on Catwoman, but I can't think of any real justification for Black Cat having it.

I think a "Backbreaker Special Attack" would be pretty cool... though I'm not sure what it would entail.

I agree that you could justify Bane as a Outlaw leader - he is really smart, good at tactics, and it's not a stretch to use him as a criminal mastermind of sorts. So for him, I could see it working. But if it works on Catman, well, it works on Catman.

On Bane, he is a criminal Mastermind. That was the genius of the character when he was first created in Batman. He was stronger than Batman and a better planner than any one of Bats' previous villains, who had all gotten in a rut of being more about their gimmicks than their personalities. Bane broke that tendency. When you look at him he looks like a giant musclehead (ask Joel Shumacher if you don't believe me) but he was way more and that was Batman's mistake. He got so used to the gimmicks, he took him only at face value and underestimated him. When he first showed up, he was already in charge of a HUGE criminal empire (an entire country if I am not mistaken) and was looking to expand to Gotham. He is screaming to be a Criminal Mastermind.

Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1

I would get rid of the "and"...

And what about Catman being able to attack other adjacent figures? Should it be possible or not?

I honestly think the power should be this:

I could get behind this second power, however, I would like to see either one restiction or the other initially. I fear we are nerfing him too much based solely on Theoryscaping.
So either this,

HUNTER'S PROWL
At the start of the game, before rolling for initiative, choose an opponent's Unique Hero. For the rest of the game, at the end of each of the chosen Hero's turns, if the chosen Hero is not adjacent to Catman, you may move Catman up to 4 spaces. If Catman ends his Hunter's Prowl move adjacent to the chosen Hero, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen Hero receives one wound. When Catman moves with Hunter's Prowl he will take any leaving engagement attacks.

OR this,

HUNTER'S PROWL
At the start of the game, before rolling for initiative, choose an opponent's Unique Hero. For the rest of the game, at the end of each of the chosen Hero's turns, if the chosen Hero is not adjacent to Catman, you may move Catman up to 4 spaces. If Catman ends his Hunter's Prowl move adjacent to the chosen Hero, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, the chosen Hero receives one wound. When Catman moves with Hunter's Prowl he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. If Catman is engaged to the chosen figure, he may only attack the chosen figure.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I still really loved him without the commander ability. I really don't think these guys need synergy, and if EVERYONE always has synergy, C3G will start to get a little stale...

He's not an important enough character to serve as a cornerstone in an army, in my opinion...

I disagree. Politely, but I still disagree. If you only have info about him from the 80s, I would ask you to read up on him (comicvine or wikipedia, or DC wiki). More has been written about him in the last 5 years than in the previous 20.

Originally Posted by Karat

I agree, drop it and we're good

Again, I politely, but vehemently disagree.

[NecroBlade]

I really liked the card before the changes with Outlaw Commander and prefer it without. There have been a lot of good points against it (everyone doesn't need to create/have synergy, was fine before, awkward turns, etc.).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Can't this be resolved by agreeing now to place the caveat "After revealing an Order Marker on X, instead of attacking/moving..." on any and all Outlaws we create who have one of these type powers?

because everyone keeps bringing this up and its fixed, so they must have missed this.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I really liked the card before the changes with Outlaw Commander and prefer it without. There have been a lot of good points against it (everyone doesn't need to create/have synergy, was fine before, awkward turns, etc.).

I agree not everyone needs synergy, however one member of a group providing synergy is not everyone. I firmly believe no other member of the SECRET (not Sinister) Six will have any form of synergy, especially with Outlaws.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Additionally, if Outlaw Commander goes on another card, that means Catman needs to be an Outlaw.

Incidentally, if it was going to go on another card, I would vote Scandal Savage.

~Spidey, trying hard to fight for a character he cares about while also trying to hear and work well with everyone else's opinion

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

~Spidey, trying hard to fight for a character he cares about while also trying to hear and work well with everyone else's opinion

I totally understand! I am quite content to suspend this design until the other members of the Secret Six are ready.

[johnny139]

I think that if close synergy is vital the Secret Six flavor-wise, we shouldn't cut any corners on the subject. To be honest, I prefered the simple write-up we started with, but I don't think we should be creating a number of sub-par units simply for convenience sake.

If we create units that don't evoke the core aspects of the characters they represent, what's the point, y'know?

[Griffin]

Consider it suspended then.

I will have to consult with the board about the rest of Quozl's top 5, though I think it is likely to go to the next contender.