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C3G Legacy Archive of all the original discussions and workshops from the first stage of C3G.

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  #13  
Old August 17th, 2011, 07:45 PM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Hi! This is my first post here, and I'd like to thank the C3G team for creating such a great game!

I have a question, though - mostly about Puppet Master's Reactive Mind Control, but it also touches on other D20 'evasion' abilities, so I'm posting it here instead of PM's book.

I've been using Puppet Master quite a bit lately, and something's come up. When exactly does Reactive Mind Control trigger? In PM's Book Griffin mentions that area of effect attacks 'have some value' against PM. Does this mean that RMC does not activate when PM is attacked in this way (say, when Harley throws a Smilex and PM isn't on the targeted hex, but is caught in the blast) ?

This is where I run into a problem! Spidey-Sense (official) has wording that is almost identical to RMC - if [figure] is attacked and at least one skull is rolled... etc. So, if Smilex Bomb doesn't trigger RMC, it also doesn't trigger Spidey-Sense (and Spider-Sense, and Radar Sense, etc) ? Can Black Canary and Cyclops etc. really bypass these defensive abilities?

If, however, it does trigger both these powers (which is how I've always played Spider-Man, though it could well be wrong!), then what happens to the other affected figures if RMC takes hold? Does PM escape damage and others caught in the blast take damage, or does it stop the entire attack (and if it does so to Harley's Smilex, does that then count as being used)?

Also, can I ask how RMC affects Event Heroes?

Many thanks, and keep up the amazing work!
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  #14  
Old August 17th, 2011, 08:22 PM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I've been using Puppet Master quite a bit lately, and something's come up. When exactly does Reactive Mind Control trigger? In PM's Book Griffin mentions that area of effect attacks 'have some value' against PM. Does this mean that RMC does not activate when PM is attacked in this way (say, when Harley throws a Smilex and PM isn't on the targeted hex, but is caught in the blast) ?
Area effects like Harley's bomb or Punisher's Shotgun can bypass RMC when they attack an adacent figure to Puppet Master, because they are not targeting and attacking Puppet Master directly. The official game does not allow figures to attack themselves. So, if a figure is AFFECTED by its own special attack, it is clear that being Affected is different than being attacked, even though the result could be the same.

Quote:

This is where I run into a problem! Spidey-Sense (official) has wording that is almost identical to RMC - if [figure] is attacked and at least one skull is rolled... etc. So, if Smilex Bomb doesn't trigger RMC, it also doesn't trigger Spidey-Sense (and Spider-Sense, and Radar Sense, etc) ? Can Black Canary and Cyclops etc. really bypass these defensive abilities?
Correct.
Yes.

Quote:
Also, can I ask how RMC affects Event Heroes?

Many thanks, and keep up the amazing work!
Great question. It doesn't work on them at all. Even though it isn't all that clear in the wording, it doesn't work on Event Heroes because they cannot be mind controlled in any way, and the theme behind this power is that he is stopping the attack, avoiding any damage, taking over the figure's mind to move it away.
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  #15  
Old August 17th, 2011, 08:26 PM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

EDIT: Dang I really need to remember to preview so I can avoid being ninja'd.

Last edited by Griffin; August 18th, 2011 at 12:41 AM.
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  #16  
Old August 18th, 2011, 12:29 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

You can still edit.

I know that I do not know.
C3G INDEX - SSE 92 - JSA GENERATIONS
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  #17  
Old August 18th, 2011, 12:42 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Good idea.
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  #18  
Old August 18th, 2011, 12:47 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
Quote:
Also, can I ask how RMC affects Event Heroes?

Many thanks, and keep up the amazing work!
Great question. It doesn't work on them at all. Even though it isn't all that clear in the wording, it doesn't work on Event Heroes because they cannot be mind controlled in any way, and the theme behind this power is that he is stopping the attack, avoiding any damage, taking over the figure's mind to move it away.
I'm not sure I buy that. Thematically accurate but mechanically I can't imagine any reason that an Event Hero wouldn't be affected.
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  #19  
Old August 18th, 2011, 01:14 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
Quote:
Also, can I ask how RMC affects Event Heroes?

Many thanks, and keep up the amazing work!
Great question. It doesn't work on them at all. Even though it isn't all that clear in the wording, it doesn't work on Event Heroes because they cannot be mind controlled in any way, and the theme behind this power is that he is stopping the attack, avoiding any damage, taking over the figure's mind to move it away.
I'm not sure I buy that. Thematically accurate but mechanically I can't imagine any reason that an Event Hero wouldn't be affected.
I am sorry you don't "buy" it, whatever that means. Like I said, it isn't worded well enough for anyone to argue my point, but my point remains, that our intention was for the power to ONLY work on figures that PM could actually reactive MIND CONTROL, which is why we added the line about mental shield. Well seeing as how all Event Heroes cannot be "mind controlled" according to their rules, this power is not supposed to work on them.
Now, we can leave it as an FAQ or we can edit the card. I am happy with either.
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  #20  
Old August 18th, 2011, 01:26 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
Quote:
Also, can I ask how RMC affects Event Heroes?

Many thanks, and keep up the amazing work!
Great question. It doesn't work on them at all. Even though it isn't all that clear in the wording, it doesn't work on Event Heroes because they cannot be mind controlled in any way, and the theme behind this power is that he is stopping the attack, avoiding any damage, taking over the figure's mind to move it away.
I'm not sure I buy that. Thematically accurate but mechanically I can't imagine any reason that an Event Hero wouldn't be affected.
I am sorry you don't "buy" it, whatever that means. Like I said, it isn't worded well enough for anyone to argue my point, but my point remains, that our intention was for the power to ONLY work on figures that PM could actually reactive MIND CONTROL, which is why we added the line about mental shield. Well seeing as how all Event Heroes cannot be "mind controlled" according to their rules, this power is not supposed to work on them.
Now, we can leave it as an FAQ or we can edit the card. I am happy with either.
"If Puppet Master is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Mental Shield special power, and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die."

If, say, Anti-Monitor is an opponent's figure and he attacks Puppet Master and rolls at least one skull, Reactive Mind Control works, because he doesn't fall into the category of figures with the Mental Shield special power.

The FLAVOR is that Event Heroes have Mental Shield, but they do not have the Mental Shield special power. On the other hand, you may be referring to this portion of the Event Hero rules:

"Players may never take temporary or permanent control of an opponent's Event Hero."

Now, this is the ability that stops a figure from using any sort of mind control power, yes, but Reactive Mind Control does NOT take control of an opponent's figure, any more than Spider-Girl does with her Field Pulse or Magneto does with Magnetic Throw. It's a movement power, not a control power. It affects Event Heroes.
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  #21  
Old August 18th, 2011, 02:08 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Dude, I know all of that. What you are not getting is "I am a Hero. I helped to create this power. Our intention was that the power would only work in a thematic way against people that PM could in fact mind control." I AM RULING This right now, because I know our intention here was to prevent him from using this power on figures that he can't thematically mind control. And my ruling is thus: Reactive Mind Control does not work on Event Heroes.

Now, you can either live with the ruling, or if you need it, we can edit the wording (because we can do that). I am truly fine with either.

As a note: you should know that the theme behind this power is not that Puppet Master is just somehow "moving" a figure. He is in fact taking over their mind (hence the title with the phrase: mind control) just for a brief moment to save his own skin.
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  #22  
Old August 18th, 2011, 02:48 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Two things:

Spiderman really gets hit by firelines and such?! I've never played like that! Isamu always gets a chance to dodge an attack, whether it's a grenade aimed at him, or to the side of him... That's really how the official game ruled it?

The only way I can see the theme for reactive mind control working correctly, is to actually give Event Heroes Mental Shield. But who honestly will remember. If you think it's a big deal, I suggest just adding the line "Reactive Mind control does not affect Event Heroes." The theme isn't there, but it works better mechanically.
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  #23  
Old August 18th, 2011, 03:04 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
Two things:

Spiderman really gets hit by firelines and such?! I've never played like that! Isamu always gets a chance to dodge an attack, whether it's a grenade aimed at him, or to the side of him... That's really how the official game ruled it?

The only way I can see the theme for reactive mind control working correctly, is to actually give Event Heroes Mental Shield. But who honestly will remember. If you think it's a big deal, I suggest just adding the line "Reactive Mind control does not affect Event Heroes." The theme isn't there, but it works better mechanically.
  1. I am not sure how the official game would have ruled it. I never asked. But I know how we intended it and how we tested it in playtesting and in the scenarios.
  2. I agree that it is best to just update the text. We are working on that in the sanctum right now in fact.
Thanks for bringing all this up guys and for your thoughts as well. This conversation actually inspired another point about this power that we are discussing as well.
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  #24  
Old August 18th, 2011, 03:50 AM
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Re: C3G Question Dump / Advice Column: Ask your questions he

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Originally Posted by Griffin View Post
As a note: you should know that the theme behind this power is not that Puppet Master is just somehow "moving" a figure. He is in fact taking over their mind (hence the title with the phrase: mind control) just for a brief moment to save his own skin.
Of course I'm aware of the intent of the power, but I don't like the idea of passing any sort of ruling based on the concept that "this is what this character should/shouldn't be able to do." To go that way lies madness. If Puppet Master will be updated with "non-Event heroes" or there's some update to the Event Heroes that says "all Event Heroes automatically have the Mental Shield special power," that's fine, but by the books, Reactive Mind Control DOES work on Event Heroes.

Not that I don't respect the ability of the Heroes to re-write those books, but until they're re-written, they're the books I'll play by.

(And honestly, Puppet Master never struck me as a "mind control" kind of guy... from what I've seen and read he just controls a person's body, not their mind. Though I suppose it's a few months late to point that out!)
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