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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.


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  #145  
Old August 28th, 2020, 12:23 AM
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Re: 4th=10th

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
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10th get more out of Raelin and other support than 4th do. 4th are best with just more 4th. Literally anything else makes them (relatively) weaker.
Disagreed. They get the same benefit from Raelin/Marcus/whoever. Only if you plan on running Raelin and end up facing a lot of melee and the point totals line up right, are the 10th gonna be better.
They get the same bonuses but also lose their valiant defense. Less of a net benefit equals less benefit.

Melee is prevalent enough now that I don't think you can hand wave away the benefit of melee defense 1. And bayonet usually comes up a few times a game.

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350 point 20 figures? 420 point full startzones? 4th are still awfully good in those cases. We just don't see those.

460 points 18 figures?


4x Mass 280
Q9 (Or Raelin + Marcus) 460
I mean, it's not bad? It's maybe better than 10th can manage at that point total, although I wouldn't sleep on 10th x3, Raelin, Marcus, Marro Warriors. That's worse in the head to head matchup, but probably better against bonding melee.

Anyway, my point was not that you can't find point totals where a 4th build is better than a 10th build in some matchups, even if there's filler involved. My point is that 4th always wants more 4th and anything else is worse than more 4th.
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  #146  
Old August 28th, 2020, 12:27 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Wait a min....
Is dok actually agreeing with me about something??!!??...
10th > 4th

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  #147  
Old August 28th, 2020, 12:33 AM
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Re: 4th=10th

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Anyway, my point was not that you can't find point totals where a 4th build is better than a 10th build in some matchups, even if there's filler involved. My point is that 4th always wants more 4th and anything else is worse than more 4th.

I think using a suiciding special attacker or hero killer is a viable strategy for the 4th at lower hex totals. It also helps smooth out the PK matchup, which is a good excuse for 10th over 4th generally.


On a recent podcast the guys said that Alastair and 4x Mass was the best 4th army for 4x400, but I think 4x Mass + a Fen Hydra could be pretty scary. I don't think we always have to hamstring them into being full valiant.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #148  
Old August 28th, 2020, 01:26 AM
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Re: 4th=10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Anyway, my point was not that you can't find point totals where a 4th build is better than a 10th build in some matchups, even if there's filler involved. My point is that 4th always wants more 4th and anything else is worse than more 4th.

I think using a suiciding special attacker or hero killer is a viable strategy for the 4th at lower hex totals. It also helps smooth out the PK matchup, which is a good excuse for 10th over 4th generally.


On a recent podcast the guys said that Alastair and 4x Mass was the best 4th army for 4x400, but I think 4x Mass + a Fen Hydra could be pretty scary. I don't think we always have to hamstring them into being full valiant.
The only time I played general wars since 2012 I played 4th with Nilfheim. I beat knights with it . Still, tactically having to lead with the nonvaliant stuff limits you. My one loss in the event (to a PK/Mezzo/Hydra army) was in part because he could so easily predict my Nilf opening.
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  #149  
Old August 28th, 2020, 06:17 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

While it's true that 4th get the same bonuses with Marcus, I think 10th actually play better with Marcus because they are better at acting as their own screen when you hit bonding mele.

For example, you can get 6 10th surrounding Marcus, and then put 4-6 more 10th out in front 1-2 spaces as the screen. The further out 10th use WtF on bonding mele as they approach, then when they get there the extra die from mele defense improves the screen from 2 defense to 3 while you are shooting from behind with 4x4 attacks.

The extra dice for the ~ 2 turns where it matters isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it is something and in some cases can give you an extra turn to shoot with your 4x4 setup.
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  #150  
Old February 17th, 2021, 11:29 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

I personally prefer the 10th (went 5-0 with them in 2010 at NHSD playing them with MDG, see Tournament Record in sig) but I also tend to play more aggressively which I think suits the 10th more than the 4th. These days I think having valiant special attackers from VC like Myrddin and Ulfric help the 4th with the bad rats matchup, so I largely agree with the original point of this post dependent on a player's own playing style.
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  #151  
Old February 18th, 2021, 08:34 AM
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Re: 4th>10th

Seems weird to have an entire competitive thread dedicated to this. Of COURSE being in 4th place is better than being in 10th place.

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  #152  
Old February 24th, 2021, 04:12 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

I've always maintained the 10th are slightly better. Especially going one vs one with other squad figures, they can get that attack bonus, whereas the 4th all need to stand still.

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  #153  
Old March 16th, 2021, 03:17 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Thinking recently that Harquebus/Raelin are at least better than 4th.

4th x5 = 350pts
Harquebus x5 + Raelin = 380pts

30pts more but you’re not restrained to Valiant figures, and you get the same defense as long as you’re with Raelin’s aura.

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  #154  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:31 AM
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Drawbacks

I love Make Your Own 4th but the problem is twofold. One, that lack of flexibility to move outside that aura can be real tricky. Two, Raelin gets a giant target on her back as the Harqs become so much more vulnerable without her. It's viable and I took that to a Gencon Main Event and did well but I still think 4th better than Make Your Own 4th.

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  #155  
Old March 17th, 2021, 01:11 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

The Ashigaru Harquebus are good, but I think that needing to stay within Raelin's aura is a significant detriment to them (especially against armies that can take out Raelin early, which brings them back down to 1 defense permanently). There are enough Valiant options out there that I feel like losing the restriction often isn't worth the cost.

I do think that they're much better in a RtW or other format than "double-blind, bring your strongest army" stuff. The 4th are just more consistent overall.

I think that the Harquebus and Yari is actually a very good army when played well, too, albeit they've been pretty badly hurt competitively by the harsher figure limits than the old 24-hex starting zone limits.
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