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  #3937  
Old December 11th, 2019, 11:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Alright...been working on a few things on my own, and think I'm at a good point to share here before some additional playtesting and submitting.

I've really been thinking a lot about these 2 designs and exactly what I want out of them...and I realized 1 very important point. I was trying to do TOO much. Veguzza had a lot going on with all of his previous iterations and Rujin did seem like he was trying too hard to be the same as other things but not. As a designer, I love Love LOVE the advice Syctale gives people that the powers can be the same or similar to what we're used to, but it's the interactions of the powers in the game and how they bring new strategy with that unit that makes it exciting. i.e. it's more about the new ways that a unit plays in a game than the new powers you've given it. So I have the below new iterations:

RUJIN
I realized 1) Rujin's regenerate was too strong in specific situations, so I could still be thematic and less strong by using "normal" regenerate and 2) why was I trying to mix Lurking Ambush and First Assault together? That's just confusing and not very good. So I realized that Lurking Ambush, as written, actually fits the theme of a swamp troll REALLY well and it's a preexisting power that would have some great potential in a Durgeth Build i.e. hide Rujin in the swamp for a bit and then rush him out when the time is right to smack down on some peeps. Also, if the opponent tries to engage Rujin to keep him from getting the ambush, then it makes it more likely that the Ravagers can come in and kill them, freeing Rujin up to ambush something else.


VEGUZZA
I realized 1) his engagement strike from previous iterations was just too much 2) Lurk in Swamp just didn't feel quite right and 3) his taunt power before was VERY wordy and a bit too much going on. I decided I just need the be simple and create the bare bones of what I wanted rather than add on all the bells that I thought would help the theme. Thus, we have a simple and thematic Taunt power that fits the mini and a thematic swamp based power (since he's Durgeth) that copies over from the Dumetef Guard as a preexisting power. This makes for a compelling designs where Veguzza gets to run up, Taunt in his foes and then smack em upside the head. More importantly, if he's in Swamp it's even more thematic that he's Taunting them from low ground where they feel they might have the advantage on him.


Pretty excited about where these landed...but of course wouldn't mind some thoughtful feedback if I'm missing anything glaring. I plan to playtest these iterations, as I'm pretty confident with them from a design standpoint, and then would be submitting...so feedback would be appreciated.

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  #3938  
Old December 12th, 2019, 07:49 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

It seems odd having 6 life on Veguzza. His figure is so thin it's a bit thematically jarring. I feel 5 health would make it a little less eyebrow raising, but I do see that there are other examples of high health, but less-bulky figures already around, so it's not breaking precedence - just feels weird.

I did enjoy your recent battle video of testing a previous iteration of him and seeing you trying to set up taunts to get engagement strikes. It was a cool interaction. It did seem like too much so I agree with that sentiment, but perhaps mostly because his health was so high. If his health was set to 4, it could have made him more of an aggressive figure and less of taunting for the sake of keeping units off your ravagers. This would have fit more with the ravagers theme. Unless ravagers can hide in the swamp, they drop like flies. Why is this guy able take so much punishment?
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  #3939  
Old December 12th, 2019, 09:21 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by bmon View Post
Why is this guy able take so much punishment?
Because he’s a hero. Heroes individually are almost always stronger than their individual squaddie companions. As a whole squad though, I’d say he has about the same survivability...which I think is appropriate for a hero. That said, 5 life is a potential change considering Uzog has 6 life and is a hulking Durgeth. But even then, it’s not unprecedented to have similar life values for very different sized and themed heroes, some which, don’t really always make sense if you’re just looking at the life stat (Valguard has 7 life, Jotun- a Giant- has 7 life, while TKN only has 6 and SBN has 5). Veguzza may be Durgeth, but again, there’s nothing that suggests he has to be as paper thin as they are. I mean, even with 6 life and 2 def, he still goes down pretty quick, even if he’s in swamp water (which is usually low ground anyway).

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  #3940  
Old December 12th, 2019, 10:23 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I guess my biggest question would be why a Durgeth Savage hero would lose the Hide in Swamp ability that seems to be their defining characteristic? Uzog seems like a giant mutant for a Durgeth, for a normal one would seem out of place. Kind of like a Grut without Disengage, doesn't seem proper. Myself I use that figure for my regular squad because I liked it more.

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  #3941  
Old December 12th, 2019, 10:54 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
I guess my biggest question would be why a Durgeth Savage hero would lose the Hide in Swamp ability that seems to be their defining characteristic? Uzog seems like a giant mutant for a Durgeth, for a normal one would seem out of place. Kind of like a Grut without Disengage, doesn't seem proper. Myself I use that figure for my regular squad because I liked it more.
I mean, yeah I could...but there actually is precedent against your claim. Both Ornak and Grimnak exist in classic scape as Gruts with no Disengage ability.

The idea/theme is still present that he’s stronger in swamp, but rather than hiding from his foes, he’s cocky and wants to taunt them over to him.

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  #3942  
Old December 12th, 2019, 11:28 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I much appreciate the push towards simplicity. It's easy to mistake newness and complexity for creativity.

The changes to Rujin are good, though I fear he's become even more similar to the Feral Troll... and mostly better. You may want to drop his Attack to 3 to make him dependent on Lurking Ambush, which would make him play pretty differently.

I agree that Veguzza's 6 Life stands out as abnormal, but not egregiously so. It's a lot for the price, though. This tightened version of Taunt is nice. It would probably be overpowered on a normal bonding hero, but the post-turn bonding weakens it a lot. I do not think he needs Swamp Strength, especially at the low price. It's thematic, but unnecessary. I like robb's suggestion of using Hide in Swamp instead.
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  #3943  
Old December 12th, 2019, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
I guess my biggest question would be why a Durgeth Savage hero would lose the Hide in Swamp ability that seems to be their defining characteristic? Uzog seems like a giant mutant for a Durgeth, for a normal one would seem out of place. Kind of like a Grut without Disengage, doesn't seem proper. Myself I use that figure for my regular squad because I liked it more.
I mean, yeah I could...but there actually is precedent against your claim. Both Ornak and Grimnak exist in classic scape as Gruts with no Disengage ability.

The idea/theme is still present that he’s stronger in swamp, but rather than hiding from his foes, he’s cocky and wants to taunt them over to him.
I guess it's hard to disengage on big animals/dinosaurs as it's a personal ability. There's possible outliers here and there of course. I have a couple Durgeth savage heroes I've been working on that use the Hide in Swamp ability. I'll post one for some insight and discussion.

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  #3944  
Old December 12th, 2019, 10:42 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Veguzza : I'm ambivalent on Swamp Strength vs Hide in Swamp. Both feel Durgeth to me. I also think the mini looks kind of frail for 6 Life, but I'm more willing to buy it as a Comfrey Plant tidbit. Mostly I don't like that Taunt can rocket a figure through some really weird scenarios. Taunted figures can jump over screens, traverse a ton of height instantly, go over water/lava, etc. Feels like it would play weird to me. I know there are restrictions, but when the theme is that the figure is running to get adjacent to Veguzza, it feels weird to imagine it running through those scenarios.

Rujin : I agree with Scytale that he seems a bit too "Feral Troll, but not." I had that feeling while testing with him as well, to an extent. Honestly, while the design in and of itself it's necessarily bad, I think it would be cooler to go back a bit on him. I really liked the idea you originally had of the monster of the Durgeth Swamps, but that evolved into him being just another troll. Why not go back to that idea, keep Lurking Ambush, scrap Regenerate and being a Troll (he looks so much cooler than a troll and could easily be something else, or maybe he's a Valhalla Troll with a different signature power), and work in some other cool high survivability power to keep his function in Durgeth Armies the same. If you could reasonably get his cost higher to the 130-150 range, that would also help the army building issue of him being right next to Pel and Uzog in point value, too.

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  #3945  
Old December 13th, 2019, 03:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Veguzza : I'm ambivalent on Swamp Strength vs Hide in Swamp. Both feel Durgeth to me. I also think the mini looks kind of frail for 6 Life, but I'm more willing to buy it as a Comfrey Plant tidbit. Mostly I don't like that Taunt can rocket a figure through some really weird scenarios. Taunted figures can jump over screens, traverse a ton of height instantly, go over water/lava, etc. Feels like it would play weird to me. I know there are restrictions, but when the theme is that the figure is running to get adjacent to Veguzza, it feels weird to imagine it running through those scenarios.
Agreed Taunt may have some odd interactions at times, but so do lot's of powers in the right situations. As written, the theme is pretty simple, clear and 95% of the time will be used without it causing any thematic issues. Sure, there may be a time the figure "runs across" lava to get to him, but maybe they jumped? I mean, it would just be too insane to try and make the power work more thematically accurate in every possible situation by adding additional text to account for it. In truth, this power is really no different than Barge into Battle and I tried to use that as a base for this power. In regards to theme the way BiB works, it's really no different than what Taunt could potentially do in weird situations i.e. have a Bugbear "run across" lava or over a screen to replace a gobby on the frontline.


Quote:
Rujin : I agree with Scytale that he seems a bit too "Feral Troll, but not." I had that feeling while testing with him as well, to an extent. Honestly, while the design in and of itself it's necessarily bad, I think it would be cooler to go back a bit on him. I really liked the idea you originally had of the monster of the Durgeth Swamps, but that evolved into him being just another troll. Why not go back to that idea, keep Lurking Ambush, scrap Regenerate and being a Troll (he looks so much cooler than a troll and could easily be something else, or maybe he's a Valhalla Troll with a different signature power), and work in some other cool high survivability power to keep his function in Durgeth Armies the same. If you could reasonably get his cost higher to the 130-150 range, that would also help the army building issue of him being right next to Pel and Uzog in point value, too.
Those are some interesting cents you just threw...I kinda like that prospect...I'll have to think about that. That said, I'm not sure what other Race would work here? I mean, there's Beast, but I don't wanna try and deal with AG synergy and Ogre just isn't right. So idk...I might have to go the Valhalla Troll route and make sure to remove Regenerate.

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  #3946  
Old December 13th, 2019, 04:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Veguzza : I'm ambivalent on Swamp Strength vs Hide in Swamp. Both feel Durgeth to me. I also think the mini looks kind of frail for 6 Life, but I'm more willing to buy it as a Comfrey Plant tidbit. Mostly I don't like that Taunt can rocket a figure through some really weird scenarios. Taunted figures can jump over screens, traverse a ton of height instantly, go over water/lava, etc. Feels like it would play weird to me. I know there are restrictions, but when the theme is that the figure is running to get adjacent to Veguzza, it feels weird to imagine it running through those scenarios.
Agreed Taunt may have some odd interactions at times, but so do lot's of powers in the right situations. As written, the theme is pretty simple, clear and 95% of the time will be used without it causing any thematic issues. Sure, there may be a time the figure "runs across" lava to get to him, but maybe they jumped? I mean, it would just be too insane to try and make the power work more thematically accurate in every possible situation by adding additional text to account for it. In truth, this power is really no different than Barge into Battle and I tried to use that as a base for this power. In regards to theme the way BiB works, it's really no different than what Taunt could potentially do in weird situations i.e. have a Bugbear "run across" lava or over a screen to replace a gobby on the frontline.
This is one place I'd rather just go with "game not simulation" and not worry about the details.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Rujin : I agree with Scytale that he seems a bit too "Feral Troll, but not." I had that feeling while testing with him as well, to an extent. Honestly, while the design in and of itself it's necessarily bad, I think it would be cooler to go back a bit on him. I really liked the idea you originally had of the monster of the Durgeth Swamps, but that evolved into him being just another troll. Why not go back to that idea, keep Lurking Ambush, scrap Regenerate and being a Troll (he looks so much cooler than a troll and could easily be something else, or maybe he's a Valhalla Troll with a different signature power), and work in some other cool high survivability power to keep his function in Durgeth Armies the same. If you could reasonably get his cost higher to the 130-150 range, that would also help the army building issue of him being right next to Pel and Uzog in point value, too.
Those are some interesting cents you just threw...I kinda like that prospect...I'll have to think about that. That said, I'm not sure what other Race would work here? I mean, there's Beast, but I don't wanna try and deal with AG synergy and Ogre just isn't right. So idk...I might have to go the Valhalla Troll route and make sure to remove Regenerate.
I don't think you need to go away from Regenerate. With as small of a change as dropping Attack to 3, you have a unit that plays entirely differently.
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  #3947  
Old December 13th, 2019, 04:58 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Big ugly troll like this doesn’t quite fit the 3 att imo. And then it makes him even more like the Feral Troll....which seems to be a concern for most (though not as much to me). I do think maybe trying a higher price point might be better as Bigga suggested...though that does then potentially force a change in powers to meet the higher price....that or up the base stats, but that doesn’t feel right to give more def. So we’ll see, I’ll think about it. I’m thinking I might just replace regenerate with “Thick Skin” which would basically just be some sort of defense power.

EDIT: Couple power ideas...

Thick Skin
Rujin rolls 2 additional defense dice when defending against a normal [adjacent?] attack.

Territorial
Before moving, add 1 to Rujin’s move this turn for each opponent’s figure on a swamp water space [and swamp terrain?].

or an attack version

Territorial
Before rolling attack dice, add 2 to Rujin’s attack if the defending figure is on a Swamp Space.

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  #3948  
Old December 13th, 2019, 05:16 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Big ugly troll like this doesn’t quite fit the 3 att imo. And then it makes him even more like the Feral Troll....which seems to be a concern for most (though not as much to me).
The big ugly Feral Troll has 3 Attack.

The problem I see with the latest version of Rujin is that he's mostly like the Feral Troll but mostly better. While Lurking Ambush is great, 4 Attack is enough to get the job done. So he's a rush in and fight out it guy, with a higher base attack than the Feral. On the other hand, with only 3 Attack, he isn't good enough normally, you have to rely on Lurking Ambush to get his value. That's entirely different than the Feral Troll, which wants to jump into combat with a hero and keep swinging and swinging.

Statlines, powers, etc do not make units too similar. Overly similar playstyles do, even if stats and powers are different.
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