[Pod 0] Glyph of Movement - Design

[NecroBlade]

My issue with one figure on the card getting +2 per turn is it really only works for Squads (plus Heroes leaving the glyph).

I'm not sure about the suggestion for a new type of glyph that doesn't stop your movement. In the case of the original idea, for example, a figure with 6 Move could move 3 spaces onto it and still come flying 5 spaces out the other side. That's a lot of extra movement if multiple figures utilize it at once. With that in mind, here's another twist on @Astroking112 's first suggestion (which also works as a normal power glyph either way):

Glyph of Movement
The first time each turn a figure enters this space, it may move 2 additional spaces while moving normally.

Back to the no-stopping glyph idea, it may be either virtually no different, as the point of glyphs is to be somewhere you want to stop anyway (except this particular concept, and this glyph could have written into it "figures don't have to stop" in order to retain that functionality without adding the new rules). Or, it may be quite a big difference, in that depending on the map and glyph placement it allows you to rush a bunch of figures past it to set up a screen on the same turn the last figure moves up behind them and claims the glyph.

[Skinderella]

It feels like something that's potentially best left until we have an idea of what we want this type of glyph to be, as usefulness/power of each one will depend on what the differences and base functions of this glyph type is.

Glyph of Movement
The first time each turn a figure enters this space, it may move 2 additional spaces while moving normally.

The problem I have with this is that glyphs tend to be THE reason to go to a usually out of the way or disadvantageous place, and on paper I just don't see much reason to go to it. If you're using it just for the boost, chances are your opponent is either already there, or you'd reach them quicker by not diverting to the glyph for 2 extra move. There'd be no reason to fight for it once someone gets to it since they'll most likely then speed past it and be blocking it off, and you can probably figure out who'll get to it first from the start of the game. It also seems stronger on ranged units. Krav strike me as an example, 8 move with 7 range dancing around the glyph whenever someone gets near them.

[flameslayer93]

Dancing around the glyph is certainly an annoying issue, though it isn't as bad as Valda in general.

On another topic, I think if we are wanting custom rules for these glyphs, we should wait until we have a good idea of what those are before designing them. If we want a rule to only apply to a particular glyph, its easy enough to write the exception into the rulebook.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Skinderella

The problem I have with this is that glyphs tend to be THE reason to go to a usually out of the way or disadvantageous place, and on paper I just don't see much reason to go to it. If you're using it just for the boost, chances are your opponent is either already there, or you'd reach them quicker by not diverting to the glyph for 2 extra move. There'd be no reason to fight for it once someone gets to it since they'll most likely then speed past it and be blocking it off, and you can probably figure out who'll get to it first from the start of the game. It also seems stronger on ranged units. Krav strike me as an example, 8 move with 7 range dancing around the glyph whenever someone gets near them.

The point of a glyph like this was to be used strategically in scenarios and map-building to create new, interesting pathing. It wouldn't work as well mixed in with other glyphs in the typical fixed spots on maps. That said, the point about moving past the glyph and blocking it off is a very good one (as I alluded to above). It would benefit Range, but remember their pursuers would also be able to use the glyph to chase them down unless there are units/terrain screening somehow.

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

On another topic, I think if we are wanting custom rules for these glyphs, we should wait until we have a good idea of what those are before designing them. If we want a rule to only apply to a particular glyph, its easy enough to write the exception into the rulebook.

IMO that's exactly the opposite if what we should do. If there was a special rule for one glyph, why wouldn't we put that on the glyph card as part of its abilities instead of burying it in the rulebook? We can discuss a rule like "figures do not have to stop on [scientific term for black] glyphs", but I think the screening issue would be enough of a roadblock (pun intended) that it wouldn't pan out.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I'm not sure about the suggestion for a new type of glyph that doesn't stop your movement. In the case of the original idea, for example, a figure with 6 Move could move 3 spaces onto it and still come flying 5 spaces out the other side. That's a lot of extra movement if multiple figures utilize it at once.

With that in mind, here's another twist on @Astroking112 's first suggestion (which also works as a normal power glyph either way):

I think that it's still more manageable and less overwhelming than Valda in any case. For Squads, they have to take their turns together to benefit from the glyph instead of spreading out, which can really limit their movement. That said, I have no issues with limiting it to once per turn.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Back to the no-stopping glyph idea, it may be either virtually no different, as the point of glyphs is to be somewhere you want to stop anyway (except this particular concept, and this glyph could have written into it "figures don't have to stop" in order to retain that functionality without adding the new rules). Or, it may be quite a big difference, in that depending on the map and glyph placement it allows you to rush a bunch of figures past it to set up a screen on the same turn the last figure moves up behind them and claims the glyph.

Eh, it's true that a map could have a very narrow chokepoint that would be completely blocked by the glyph to force figures to stop without being able to move past it, but I feel like that's a very rare occurrence (and it won't be common at all on our maps). The bigger advantage competitively IMO is that the first figure can stop on the glyph to get the auto-skull or whatever else, and then the other figures can still move through that space instead of going around to attack with the bonus. I don't think that's a huge difference competitively, especially when our other permanent glyph that is mostly ironed out at this point (Knowledge) is pretty weak overall.

Originally Posted by Skinderella

The problem I have with this is that glyphs tend to be THE reason to go to a usually out of the way or disadvantageous place, and on paper I just don't see much reason to go to it. If you're using it just for the boost, chances are your opponent is either already there, or you'd reach them quicker by not diverting to the glyph for 2 extra move. There'd be no reason to fight for it once someone gets to it since they'll most likely then speed past it and be blocking it off, and you can probably figure out who'll get to it first from the start of the game. It also seems stronger on ranged units. Krav strike me as an example, 8 move with 7 range dancing around the glyph whenever someone gets near them.

With the glyph placement and map design that we generally see right now, there are few instances where I think that moving through a glyph has the potential to really change up the game. The point of allowing it would be to make completely new options: for example, if we have a castle siege map, perhaps the left path is shorter but goes through the door, while there's a gap on the right with this glyph within firing range to provide a quick +2 burst? We could create a sloped, slower section in one area, while there's a cliff somewhere that the +2 glyph is a few spaces away from to provide a way for figures to quickly run up and scale it, etc. I think that this draft in particular would be best for scenarios; it's possible that there could be an interesting competitive map designed with it in the center, but I don't think that we should design with that in mind, personally.

I do think that the glyph could help range by pushing them past breakpoints to claim height or the like, but I'd argue that it benefits melee as well if they're not blocked off. Like @flameslayer93 said, if the Krav are dancing around the glyph, it's pretty easy to block them off with melee (especially if we limit the glyph to once per turn like NecroBlade suggested), and melee can often benefit even just from that +1M to reach an engagement that they couldn't have done otherwise. Of course, the potential to form a screen past the glyph means that it benefits the first player to reach it more, but that's true of all glyphs anyway.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

We can discuss a rule like "figures do not have to stop on [scientific term for black] glyphs", but I think the screening issue would be enough of a roadblock (pun intended) that it wouldn't pan out.

I'm not sure that the screening is as bad as think? It's pretty much a weaker Valda in every way (other than being able to move through one extra fixed space on the map). Aggressive players are often able to claim Valda and then block it off anyway, let alone other permanent glyphs. They're then also getting +2 move for every reinforcement that they move forward, whereas this idea would be a very limited +2 move to one section of the map.

Just continuing the brainstorming, we could also throw in a condition like this to the rules:

VOID GLYPHS
Figures do not have to stop their movement when entering Void Glyphs. If there is a figure standing on a Void Glyph, then no other figures may move through that space.

I don't particularly like this since it's a little more confusing, but that prevents one player from being able to sit on the Glyph of Movement and still get the bonus for their other figures (say if they had Templars or Vipers behind a tanky figure). It also makes the difference for our other glyphs somewhat moot, since they pretty much become straight Power Glyphs outside of not being forced to stop when moving onto Knowledge. We could also take the opposite approach and let any figures move through figures standing on a Void Glyph, which has the potential to get weird and counterintuitive.

[flameslayer93]

Quoting myself
On another topic, I think if we are wanting custom rules for these glyphs, we should wait until we have a good idea of what those are before designing them. If we want a rule to only apply to a particular glyph, its easy enough to write the exception into the rulebook.


Quoting @NecroBlade

IMO that's exactly the opposite if what we should do. If there was a special rule for one glyph, why wouldn't we put that on the glyph card as part of its abilities instead of burying it in the rulebook? We can discuss a rule like "figures do not have to stop on [scientific term for black] glyphs", but I think the screening issue would be enough of a roadblock (pun intended) that it wouldn't pan out.


I don't think you are really disagreeing with me here NB lol.


If "doesn't stop moving" is going to be a thing for all of the Black Glyphs, then I'm suggesting we decide that before going forward with designing this and the other stat boosting glyphs. If it is an exclusive trait to the Black Glyph of Movement, then it should be in the power text for this glyph (in the rulebook... master set glyphs don't have cards!! ). Perfectly fine by me, and probably about the only reason this glyph shouldn't be Valda 2.0 imo


I did have an idea for the glyph to basically grant Orc Battle Rush (2 points) to your whole army... but that only makes sense as a Temp Glyph and I don't like the effect for the Master Set personally. Plus, I'd prefer the 4:2 Perm:Temp ratio we have, for scenario making purposes.

[NecroBlade]

I guess I never really thought about the Master Set glyphs not having cards since I don't think I've ever played with a glyph's card, lol.

Sounds like first we need to decide if we want any new rules to be associated with black glyphs as a whole. I lean against, as I'm not sure it's worth adding for just these 6 while muddying the waters for anyone who goes from this to normal power glyphs.

[Skinderella]

If we want to keep them simple for newer players, having them as normal glyphs might be the best way to go. We could also have something special for them that is optional. I'm of the opinion that these glyphs should have their own little thing, but can easily see why regular glyphs would be better and safer.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Skinderella

If we want to keep them simple for newer players, having them as normal glyphs might be the best way to go. We could also have something special for them that is optional. I'm of the opinion that these glyphs should have their own little thing, but can easily see why regular glyphs would be better and safer.

Leaving them as normal Power Glyphs would probably be the least confusing thing to do for a new player, since if they start collecting things like Malliddon's Prophecy and get random red glyphs, they'll work exactly the same as expected.

That said, I am tempted to do something small and distinct here to justify why these glyphs are different, and perhaps paint a stronger theme for the set as a whole. Tying them into the Pillars of Hár as strange relics in the Sea of Sand could be fun, for instance. To that end, I think that dropping the "figures must stop moving when stepping on a Power Glyph" restriction would be an easy change, but I'm curious to see if anyone has a stronger and more appealing idea. This one really only benefits this glyph if we take it that certain route--the other glyphs would be mostly unaffected by the change.

Another idea from a few years back was to limit these glyphs' effects to something like 6 clear sight spaces to prevent blanket boosts like for the Power Glyphs, but we decided against that originally because it would heavily favor range.

[Skinderella]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Another idea from a few years back was to limit these glyphs' effects to something like 6 clear sight spaces to prevent blanket boosts like for the Power Glyphs, but we decided against that originally because it would heavily favor range.

What about this but it's carried like a Treasure glyph? Or maybe even a Curse glyph where it grants that bonus in an AoE, but subtracts it from the carrier. Or just gives a general negative effect to the carrier like -1 defense or deals a wound?

[Astroking112]

"Curse Glyphs" sound intriguing as a concept, but the negative downside would have to be balanced well against the positives to keep the glyphs overall desirable. Recall, for example, can be very swingy in terms of how useful it is. Bringing back an Ashigaru Yari isn't worth the same penalty as bringing back a Vulcanmech Incendiborg.

That said, if we can balance the glyphs with a simple yet consistent downside, then that could be pretty cool. I feel like there's a good deal of design space here to consider.

[lefton4ya]

How about taking a page from SotM and make it "Unique Move +2"

All Unique Figures in your army may add 2 to the Move Number stated on their Army Card

Since all units in this Master Set are unique, it is effectively the same as Valda if only playing this set, but when mixed with other sets it is a less powerful version of Valda that I can see very easily being a tournament worthy glyph like Ulaniva (Unique Attack +1) is.